TL-TwoWinsAway Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Disclaimer: I'm a Lions' fan. I think the answer is yes. From the 2011 to 2016 seasons, the Packers have failed to win a Super Bowl despite having one of the top 3 QBs in the NFL during that span. That, to me, is a waste of his ability. No, other bad situations do not make his situation better. The organization doesn't get a pass because others have shown greater incompetence. You either put the pieces around that player to win Super Bowls, or you fell short. In my opinion, they've fallen short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/18/2017 at 5:14 AM, Hunter2_1 said: It is great. Means even more prolonged success so that we can continue to see obscure stats like "EP..." that are designed to discredit a member of our successful team, despite the thread not being about our team, at all... In all seriousness though, it's obvious that BB creates the best possible environment for all involved, but especially Brady. When you have an all-timer like Brady, you need to let him flourish. That said, we really haven't had a running game since....erm...2004? We never have receivers that are considered top 10 in the league (last one was Moss). Manning had Harrison, Wayne, Thomas (all considered at least top 10 or 5). Rodgers has Nelson (once considered top 5) and a top 10 OL, plus he's enjoyed good running games before. Usually we have a good defense, usually have solid ST, a competent OL and mismatch weapons. As long as Belichick is around the Patriots should be just fine. One tendency I notice is that many Patriots fans don't even seem to understand how good that team actually has been in comparison to other teams. For example, you don't have to go all the way back to 2004 to find a good running game on the Patriots. The Patriots had a good running game just last year with Blount. You know, the 1,100 yard rusher who led the NFL in rushing TDs. In fact, the Patriots have provided Brady with a better running game than the top 4 QBs of this era besides Drew Brees. "In general, it looks like Brady and Brees have enjoyed the most rushing support while Rodgers has suffered the least amount of support by conventional metrics – and remember, those TD and first down totals include ones he picked up himself, meaning his support in those areas is likely even worse than the numbers indicate. Manning and Brady have had a top ten run game in 7 seasons, while Brees has had one 3 times and Rodgers has had a top ten running game in 2 seasons." http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-support-for-manning-brady-brees-and-rodgers-part-ii/ Rodgers has not had a top 10 OLine throughout his career. In fact, his OLines are usually quite bad (often due to injury). According to Football Outsiders, it's Brady who has had the top 10 pass protection throughout his career, not Rodgers. Average Pass Protection Rank: Rodgers: 21st in the NFL Brady: 8th in the NFL http://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/ol2009 It's not just rushing, passing, or defense, the Patriots have consistently enjoyed a quality team in virtually all aspects of the game for the past 16 years. The Packers have not given Rodgers that same surrounding quality team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/18/2017 at 5:26 AM, Hunter2_1 said: @Revel8 Belichick has had 22 seasons as a head coach, and his 11 winningest have all been with Brady under center. Likewise, his five worst were all without Brady (four during his stint with the Cleveland Browns, plus one in New England with Drew Bledsoe). https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/brady-vs-belichick-whos-to-blame-for-the-patriots-insufferable-success/ Well of course, it wasn't until he joined the Patriots that he had full control over a team rebuild. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/18/2017 at 7:09 AM, childofpudding said: Why are you using that point in time - when Brady started - as the date when Belichick "rebuilt the Patriots"? Why won't you include his games coaching the Browns, or the 18 games coaching the Patriots before Brady started? The context you seek is dishonest. And the data in the article you linked is flawed, which I've demonstrated. Actually, nevermind, I just briefly looked at your post history and see that your existence here consists almost entirely of propping up Rodgers and taking shots at Brady. All good brother. Carry on. Due to the fact that Bill Belichick pointed out that 2000 and 2001 were the team's rebuilding years. Rebuilds take time. We had a lot of rebuilding to do in 2000, 2001,” said Belichick. http://www.csnne.com/new-england-patriots/belichick-reflects-2000-hall-fame-game-and-bradys-beginnings Belichick had no control over an entire roster rebuild in his previous seasons. With the Patriots rebuild he was able to match his philosophy with the players that fit that philosophy, which has been integral to the Patriots' success. No need to lie about me either. I've never taken shots at Brady, or propped up Rodgers. I've repeatedly pointed out that Brady is among the best QBs to ever play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ILoveTheVikings Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 19 hours ago, Jlowe22 said: Why do you think Rivers has a ring? LOL. I don't know why but I thought you meant Russel Wilson... I have no idea how that mixup came up. ugh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 On 9/18/2017 at 0:20 PM, tyler735 said: That was a very interesting graph. Truly just shows how bad some of these teams around Brees have been. Which brings up such a great counterpoint to one of the most common arguments used against Brees when ranking him as an Elite QB/One of the best to ever play, which people frequently state Brees lack of playoff appearances compared to his peers. That's not the only graph that does this. That's just 1 single graph from 1 single portion of a 3 part analysis. Part 1: http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-support-for-manning-brady-brees-and-rodgers/ Part 2: http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-support-for-manning-brady-brees-and-rodgers-part-ii/ Part 3: http://www.footballperspective.com/guest-post-support-for-manning-brady-brees-and-rodgers-part-iii/ The entire statistical analysis in the end reaches the conclusion that Brees has had the least amount of surrounding support in comparison to the 3 other elite QBs. Not that you really need an in-depth statistical analysis to see this. Brees' surrounding teams have been quite bad throughout his entire career. It's not like Brees is causing those losses, he is what's given them a chance. Brees' lack of support is closely followed by Rodgers', then not so closely by Manning's, with Brady's surrounding support being top notch by a considerable margin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jlowe22 Posted September 19, 2017 Share Posted September 19, 2017 Just now, ILoveTheVikings said: LOL. I don't know why but I thought you mean Russel Wilson... I have no idea how that mixup came up. ugh Far as the other guys go, I don't "feel sorry" for Brees, because one ring is more than almost everybody will ever get, but I do feel like he's been robbed the opportunity for another one in ways not many other QBs have had to deal with. Constant bad defense, but even worse, 32 ranked historically bad defenses, and two defenses considered the worst of all time, and now he's in the midst of a third year with a defense on pace to break the historically bad record they set in 2015. And then like last year, when the defense was slightly better, the special teams turned into straight garbage, and three games were lost due to blocked and returned field goals or extra points. It's just an horrendously run organization, similar to all the other horrendous organizations. Saints are the Browns, except they lucked up on an elite QB for a few years. And as bad as Rodgers may have it, the Packers are not the Browns. Rivers is in a similar situation and doesn't have a ring. Peyton had some bad teams, but Peyton had plenty of chances and made mistakes of his own. And Brady of course, has had the best supporting cast since Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
childofpudding Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 19 hours ago, Revel8 said: Due to the fact that Bill Belichick pointed out that 2000 and 2001 were the team's rebuilding years. Rebuilds take time. Odd that you'd pick the exact date that Brady started as the day that the rebuild began. What a coincidence! 19 hours ago, Revel8 said: No need to lie about me either. I've never taken shots at Brady, or propped up Rodgers. I've repeatedly pointed out that Brady is among the best QBs to ever play. lol Welcome back, DeepConvection or w/e your name was on the old forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 @Revel8 it's weird that you said you weren't going to spend time looking up stats and proof unless someone was paying you when you accused Belichick of cheating on the IR for the past 15 years and people asked you to prove it, yet don't seem to have a problem regurgitating stats and providing links in this thread. Keep up the great work. You and ZTOA are a match made in heaven. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 8 minutes ago, childofpudding said: Odd that you'd pick the exact date that Brady started as the day that the rebuild began. What a coincidence! lol Welcome back, DeepConvection or w/e your name was on the old forum. Have fun arguing with ztoa, the Patriots version of you. I'm done. No you're just making things up. The rebuild began when Belichick took over the Patriots, not when Belichick started Brady. Why do you think Belichick pointed out that they had a lot of rebuilding to do in 2000 and 2001? In addition, if you don't believe that the average highlight reel of Rodgers shows the athleticism and throws that the average Brady highlight reel doesn't, you truly need to watch more highlight reels. At the same time it's not really surprising that you've been forced to resort to lies, to personal attacks. When on-topic football discussion that you personally don't like can't be countered by the facts, attacking the source is the next best thing. It's a classic political maneuver and logical fallacy, but perhaps we should stick to football instead. I'm here to talk football. So if you can counter the football facts you don't personally agree with, then do. If you can't, then avoid football and attack the people who point out the facts you don't like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 Back on topic... Since when did winning multiple SBs become an almost certainty when an elite QB has a good team around him, and him not doing so means his prime is being wasted? Rodgers has won a SB and almost made it multiple. That is a really really hard thing to do, even when you have am elite QB and a good supporting cast. People need to stop using the Patriots as the barometer for success when comparing elite and Head Coaches. It's a crazy once in a lifetime pairing that doesn't happen often at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pats#1 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 6 minutes ago, Revel8 said: No you're just making things up. The rebuild began when Belichick took over the Patriots, not when Belichick started Brady. Why do you think Belichick pointed out that they had a lot of rebuilding to do in 2000 and 2001? In addition, if you don't believe that the average highlight reel of Rodgers shows the athleticism and throws that the average Brady highlight reel doesn't, you truly need to watch more highlight reels. At the same time it's not really surprising that you've been forced to resort to lies, to personal attacks. When on-topic football discussion that you personally don't like can't be countered by the facts, attacking the source is the next best thing. It's a classic political maneuver and logical fallacy, but perhaps we should stick to football instead. I'm here to talk football. So if you can counter the football facts you don't personally agree with, then do. If you can't, then avoid football and attack the people who point out the facts you don't like. You know it's okay to admit you have a bias right? It's already extremely obvious and everyone knows it, you don't have to keep pretending that you continue to post the things you do just for the sake of conversation with no agenda behind it. You saying things that are obviously false like Brady's highlight film consists of him throwing to wide open receivers, just makes you trying to act unbiased with no agenda ridiculous. Aaron Rodgers absolutely has athleticism that Brady doesn't and make throws on the run that Brady can't. Brady has also outplayed Aaron Rodgers in the SBs against the two teams he got beat by in the NFCCG. Rodgers is amazing and is still going, but your constant need to prop Rodgers up by putting Brady down makes you just like the worst Brady and Peyton supporters that used to constantly battle on here 24/7. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Revel8 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 3 minutes ago, Pats#1 said: @Revel8 it's weird that you said you weren't going to spend time looking up stats and proof unless someone was paying you when you accused Belichick of cheating on the IR for the past 15 years and people asked you to prove it, yet don't seem to have a problem regurgitating stats and providing links in this thread. Keep up the great work. You and ZTOA are a match made in heaven. Belichick cheating on the IR was demonstrated for free. Former Patriots admitted it and news articles noted it. Another Spygate? Former Patriots say team is cheating injury reports http://www.foxsports.com/nfl/story/another-spygate-former-patriots-say-belichick-is-cheating-injury-reports-032014 Brady's three-year streak on injury report comes to an end http://archive.boston.com/sports/articles/2008/09/06/bradys_three_year_streak_on_injury_report_comes_to_an_end/ Some of it has already been revealed by reporting. That costs nothing. A demonstration of the full extent of the Patriots' cheating the injury report for the past decade and a half, which can be done, would take weeks to compile and write. Something that I would need to be paid for. You're not entitled to this information just because you didn't pay attention. If you truly want to do the research, you can. If you want me to do it for you, then you're going to need to come up with adequate compensation. The fact that you came out of nowhere resorting to off topic personal attacks isn't surprising. It's the typical refuge of those who can't deal with the presented facts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
titans0021 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 First off, stick to football. Not everything needs to be personal. Second, in a thread about Aaron Rodgers, Mike McCarthy and Ted Thompson, I'm not quite sure how we've ended up on the Patriots use of injury reports. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CWood21 Posted September 20, 2017 Share Posted September 20, 2017 3 hours ago, Revel8 said: Rodgers has not had a top 10 OLine throughout his career. In fact, his OLines are usually quite bad (often due to injury). According to Football Outsiders, it's Brady who has had the top 10 pass protection throughout his career, not Rodgers. Honestly, I'd disagree with this sentiment. The Packers usually have a pretty good OL in front of Rodgers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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