Vikings extend QB Kirk Cousins (Two years)

[Guest]

On 6/24/2021 at 12:54 PM, SemperFeist said:

But what about Mayfield, even remotely, suggests that he has that potential? Even in his best year, Mayfield was at the level that Cousins has typically has been. 

So, I don’t see why his potential should be viewed as anything greater than what Kirk Cousins has been over his career. And Mayfield has yet to reach the level of play that Cousins has displayed as a member of the Vikings. 

I heard Mayfield interviewed after the season and he said for the first time he had a coach that he wanted to listen to, and he valued the growth he saw in really learning the offense.  I think that kind of growth could continue for Mayfield, the more disciplined he becomes.  Again, I think we've seen Cousins ceiling.

[vikesfan89]

Just now, Virginia Viking said:

I heard Mayfield interviewed after the season and he said for the first time he had a coach that he wanted to listen to, and he valued the growth he saw in really learning the offense.  I think that kind of growth could continue for Mayfield, the more disciplined he becomes.  Again, I think we've seen Cousins ceiling.

I thought he was a big fan of Kitchens

[Guest]

3 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

The point of potential shouldn’t even be a factor in ability rankings. It’s a different discussion all together. Sure, young quarterbacks like Burrow and Mayfield may have the potential to be better quarterbacks down the road, but potential goes unrealized in the NFL far to often to talk about it as a certainty. 

Right now, Kirk Cousins is a better QB than Derek Carr, Baker Mayfield, and Joe Burrow. So, when making rankings based on current QB abilities, I’m not sure how anyone can rank those QBs, who haven’t shown greater ability, over someone who has.

Personally, I think the "rankings" are pretty silly.  They really don't count for anything other than to give sports writers, talking heads, and fans something to argue about.  If I had the chance to trade Cousins for one of the younger QB's and their potential, I would likely gamble on the potential.

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

I thought he was a big fan of Kitchens

He was...Kitchens let him do whatever the hell he wanted.  Now he's being asked to be a little more disciplined...which is not in his nature...so, he's teachable, coachable, and sees the value in better preperation.

[swede700]

Kitchens was a horrible choice in the first place, considering he didn't even have a full season of coordinating an offense before he got the HC job.  He was even less qualified than even some of the guys I mentioned in the Zimmer thread. 

He had been around the league for awhile, but he really had been only a position coach for much of his tenure until he was thrust into a job he wasn't prepared for...he was almost like the Vikings' hiring of Tice.  Fortunately for the Browns, they cut bait before they were in too deep, unlike old buddy Red McCombs did.  

[SemperFeist]

2 hours ago, Virginia Viking said:

If I had the chance to trade Cousins for one of the younger QB's and their potential, I would likely gamble on the potential.

As would almost everyone. But that’s a different discussion. 

[CriminalMind]

There are "current rankings" and "who'd you rather have list". Cousins is definitely lower on the 2nd one. 

Edited June 26, 2021 by CriminalMind

[Guest]

18 hours ago, SemperFeist said:

As would almost everyone. But that’s a different discussion. 

Just responding to those who have responded to me.  I'm not really involved in the "rank" discussion 😃. Carry on.

[Cearbhall]

54 minutes ago, Virginia Viking said:

Just responding to those who have responded to me.  I'm not really involved in the "rank" discussion 😃. Carry on.

I can affirm to you that I was talking about who I would rather have. I suppose that is obvious when I write things like, "I would be very happy to trade Kirk Cousins away straight up for Mayfield right now.".

It would seem there are two different discussions. I agree with you that a ranking based on present abilities or present performance expectations isn't all that useful. That might matter if I thought the Vikings were a QB away from winning the SB. It's okay to have those discussions though. What else do we have to do here? I simply want to clarify that I've been talking about who I would rather in this thread as I don't want to get caught up in the ranking discussion.

The only ranking that matters to me is whether a QB is above the Dalton line. Once they are not, it doesn't matter to me how far away from the Dalton line they are or how many other QBs are below the Dalton line. 

 

Edited June 26, 2021 by Cearbhall

[Ozzy]

10 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

I can affirm to you that I was talking about who I would rather have. I suppose that is obvious when I write things like, "I would be very happy to trade Kirk Cousins away straight up for Mayfield right now.".

It would seem there are two different discussions. I agree with you that a ranking based on present abilities or present performance expectations isn't all that useful. That might matter if I thought the Vikings were a QB away from winning the SB. It's okay to have those discussions though. What else do we have to do here? I simply want to clarify that I've been talking about who I would rather in this thread as I don't want to get caught up in the ranking discussion.

The only ranking that matters to me is whether a QB is above the Dalton line. Once they are not, it doesn't matter to me how far away from the Dalton line they are or how many other QBs are below the Dalton line. 

 

Cousins was 8th in the NFL in passing yards, 8th in RTG and 6th in TDs.  He has arguably his best season of his career and I think the best season as a Viking, but ultimately the team lost so does not really matter.  But yeah Baker Mayfield is younger and has more potential because he is younger, same can be said for Joe Burrow, Justin Herbert, Tua etc.  So yeah I would take a younger Baker Mayfield or those others right now over Kirk Cousins because then the QB for the future is not a question mark.  Would love for Mond to take control of that future QB discussion but he first has to light it up in the preseason and who knows if that happens, still a 3rd round pick was well worth it as a developmental guy not named Stanley, Browning or Mannion.  PS Sean Mannion is currently not signed by a team in the NFL, big shocker.  

 

I disliked the Cousins signing originally and I absolutely hated Sam Bradford when they got him. But Kirk Cousins grew on me a little last year, much improved on and off the field communication with teammates.  Was able to lead the team despite not having a good defense or a good pass blocking OL.  Tough as hell in the pocket and got absolutely crushed multiple games, he was hit an absolute ton.  I looked during the season to compare the amount of QB hits he took compared to Rodgers and it was night and day difference.  So he showed something last year, will see if he can continue that high level play with what is assumed to be an improved defense and OL.  Granted Justin Jefferson had a lot to do with his success but it is not like Jefferson could have been that successful with Mannion throwing him the ball...

[Cearbhall]

19 hours ago, Ozzy said:

So he showed something last year, will see if he can continue that high level play with what is assumed to be an improved defense and OL. 

Very nice post. I agree with almost all of it. This line I quoted stood out to me though. Why do you assume the Vikings offensive line will be improved? In particular, do you think their pass protection will be improved? They cut their best pass protecting offensive lineman and are replacing him with a rookie. This is at the uber important LT position. It's possible that might work out, but I certainly wouldn't assume that their pass protection is going to be better. 

I am very concerned about the pass protection from the offensive line. I think there is a better chance that it will regress than odds of it improving. Reiff was pretty decent. Darrisaw sure could be decent too, but he is still a rookie and expecting him to be better as a rookie than Reiff was is asking an awful lot. Cleveland will hopefully be better, but lets be honest: he was pretty bad last year. I have no reason to believe flipping sides is going to make Dozier better. There is reason to hope that Bradbury will be better at pass protecting. I sure hope he has improved, but there is a definite chance that things don't get better there. Bradbury has been a liability in pass protection. Was hoping they would help him out by improving the guards significantly, but it doesn't look like that happened. 

Maybe Davis will prove he is a starter as a rookie and if that happens perhaps he'll help the line a lot. However, assuming a third round pick will do that is even more of a stretch than assuming a first round rookie will do better than Reiff did last year.

I would have felt better about the pass protection of the line this year had the Vikings kept Reiff and drafted AVT. However, what they did may not be bad as Reiff wasn't a long-term piece. Projecting beyond this year, Darrisaw and Davis may well be a better pair to have than Reiff and AVT.  I am just not ready to assume the Vikings offensive line is going to be better this year and am curious to hear from you why you assume that. You are one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum so I don't doubt you are right. I simply am not seeing it yet. Help me out.

[Ozzy]

1 hour ago, Cearbhall said:

Very nice post. I agree with almost all of it. This line I quoted stood out to me though. Why do you assume the Vikings offensive line will be improved? In particular, do you think their pass protection will be improved? They cut their best pass protecting offensive lineman and are replacing him with a rookie. This is at the uber important LT position. It's possible that might work out, but I certainly wouldn't assume that their pass protection is going to be better. 

I am very concerned about the pass protection from the offensive line. I think there is a better chance that it will regress than odds of it improving. Reiff was pretty decent. Darrisaw sure could be decent too, but he is still a rookie and expecting him to be better as a rookie than Reiff was is asking an awful lot. Cleveland will hopefully be better, but lets be honest: he was pretty bad last year. I have no reason to believe flipping sides is going to make Dozier better. There is reason to hope that Bradbury will be better at pass protecting. I sure hope he has improved, but there is a definite chance that things don't get better there. Bradbury has been a liability in pass protection. Was hoping they would help him out by improving the guards significantly, but it doesn't look like that happened. 

Maybe Davis will prove he is a starter as a rookie and if that happens perhaps he'll help the line a lot. However, assuming a third round pick will do that is even more of a stretch than assuming a first round rookie will do better than Reiff did last year.

I would have felt better about the pass protection of the line this year had the Vikings kept Reiff and drafted AVT. However, what they did may not be bad as Reiff wasn't a long-term piece. Projecting beyond this year, Darrisaw and Davis may well be a better pair to have than Reiff and AVT.  I am just not ready to assume the Vikings offensive line is going to be better this year and am curious to hear from you why you assume that. You are one of the most knowledgeable posters on this forum so I don't doubt you are right. I simply am not seeing it yet. Help me out.

 

Reiff was the best pass blocking on the team last year, but not sure that was the case the year before, he honestly to me looked good because O'Neill looked so bad in a way.  Not like Reiff was some All Pro or something last year, sure was better than crap that was had.  Being the best pass blocker on a bad pass blocking OL is not all that great, and Reiff is not getting younger and Darrisaw to me is a better prospect overall than Reiff was coming out of Iowa.  Thus just on that the line has improved talent wise.  Also at guard you have way more options, Dozier might not work out but might be improved off last year, same with Cleveland.  Or maybe they have a plan to move Hill or Udoh inside and try them at guard.  And if they do not work out maybe Cole could be much better as a OG than a C and I do think that is the case, I think he could be a much better guard than C or OT.  Also Wyatt Davis is again a talent upgrade, sure on paper is not great if one only views the round he was taken in, but was a probable 1st round pick coming into the season and without the injuries and poor play at times probably would have been a 1st round pick.  Was almost a lock 1st rounder and a given as the best guard in the up coming draft back in September 2020, and again injuries is a big reason why his play and stock dropped, also did not workout great but back in college as a SOPH he was freaking awesome, and still was pretty damn good last year even with the injuries.  

Sure AVT could be a great guard but Vikings got two 1st round type talents on the OL for the price of one.  Hell for Vera-Tucker the Vikings got Darrisaw, Kellen Mond and Wyatt Davis!  Yeah pretty sure that is a great deal as of right now, and Vera-Tucker I think was a tad overrated in the process but is going into a OL that is greatly improved on the Jets with adding Morgan Moses, Feeney and getting a healthy Becton I assume.  Still not sure he was as all time great guard as some made him out to be.

 

Sure a lot keys on Wyatt Davis but the dude is very talented and if healthy could be a big improvement on the OG spot, and Cleveland hell maybe if he shows ability could be the LT which is what he was supposed to be and if Darrisaw struggles on the edge play him as a OG, has a power and leg drive to do it.  

They just have a lot of options now they did not have last year with what Samia as the only real backup OG, which is not much of an option last year.  Heck he was the starter really then Cleveland had to take his place and struggled sure but not as much as Samia.  Hell the Vikings also waved Pat Elflein last year also who is starting I think next year for Carolina, will see how that goes.  

 

Now granted they are not as improved on the OL as they are potentially on the DL but still to me the talent level is improved, but sure they are rookies and that could come with some pains along the way possibly.  But Dozier that was his first full season as a starter so I would hope for some improvement from him for sure, same with Cleveland who was out of position and a rookie obviously.  And Darrisaw and Wyatt Davis are young potential guys that they simply did not have their.  Now granted maybe it will be a Bradbury type situation, 1st round pick or talent and did not play up to it and he has absolutely not, but will see how they look, got to hope those two change things on that OL for the better.

[Ozzy]

LT Darrisaw/Hill
LG Dozier/Cole
C Bradbury/Cole
RG Cleveland/W.Davis
RT O'Neill/Udoh

I would hope that is a better group.  Then again they did lose Rudolph who blocked a ton and helped out the OL, and they did not really replace him, maybe Dillon can be the blocker but doubt he plays a ton.  So in that regard he might be as big of a loss as Reiff, then again the year before O'Neill was all the talk and it was not about Reiff because he got beat a lot.  Hell was talk of O'Neill moving to LT which is probably not a great idea now looking at how he did last year.  

 

Will be curious how it goes, one assumes improvement from guys like Dozier, Bradbury, Cleveland but maybe that does not happen.  Even got guys like Brandel and Hinton who could become something who knows.  Still the overall talent level of Darrisaw and especially Wyatt Davis coming out is impressive, Vikings have not has a OG like Davis drafted from college in well I cannot really recall.

 

Not many guys Vikings draft at guard who can do this to a dude who was a 1st round pick last year.  #52

 

 

And Darrisaw is not far behind, simply put the Vikings have not go physical movers like this on the OL in awhile, much less two guys in the same draft who were both projected 1st round picks at one point or another.   #77

 

So based on that as well there is reason for hope of improvement or at least assumed improvement in terms of talent level.

 

 

 

Does suck though because compared to Detroit yeah the Vikings did not improve their OL quite as much as they did but will see.  Obviously Sewell is the best OL in this past years draft, tons of upside and ability.  Jackson I liked last year and thought the Vikings should have got him and he started 16 games as a 3rd round pick for them.  Stenberg is behind him who has talent, Drake Jackson is a solid backup to Ragnow who is a Pro Bowl player.  And Halapoulivaati moves to guard which is his better spot and Kraemer is a good backup OG they got also.  And Crosby I think could be a beast at OG but is the backup RT if Sewell does not play well.

 

LT T. Decker/D. Skipper
LG J. Jackson / L. Stenberg
C F. Ragnow/Drake Jackson
RG V. Halapoulivaati/ T. Kraemer
RT P. Sewell/ T. Crosby

 

So yeah Vikings did not get that level of talent with Sewell and quality backups added but hell if Jonah Jackson can start 16 games as a 3rd round pick, hopefully Wyatt Davis can as well and Davis I would say was the better prospect with more upside than Jackson who was great his last year at Ohio State and arguably a top guard in the draft which was some what weak at that position.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Ozzy

[swede700]

 

[wcblack34]

5 hours ago, swede700 said:

 

Can't really argue with 1-4.

Lamar is more valuable. But Kirk is a better "Quarterback." I'd put Kirk over Matt Ryan and Dak (until he shows he's back from injury). I think Allen is a one-year wonder at this point, but I'd take him over Kirk at this point based on potential. 

I'd take Ryan out of the top 10. I'd put Herbert over Baker. Maybe Murray too.