Burrow vs Lamar vs Mayfield: who would you take as a GM?

[wackywabbit]

2 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Lesser quarterbacks with sub-par mobility have had that criticism as well. That’s not a “running QB” exclusive. 

You guys are probably having a semantics debate at this point. Does a “running QB” qualify as anyone who can move, like Wilson/Watson? Or a player that relies on their legs as much as their arm, like Lamar/Cam? I always figured the latter, but it’s semantics.

What quantifiable measure do you have to make the distinctions in bold? If we are talking sematics "relies as much on their legs as much as their arm" makes me think Lamar should have had 36 rushing touchdowns too.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

What quantifiable measure do you have to make the distinctions in bold?

Flat rush attempts? Dialed up QB runs? Are we seriously going to go down the road where you argue that Wilson/Watson are as run-reliant as Cam/Lamar? Or more likely, argue that because there’s not quantifiable measures that satisfy you, then there’s no distinction? Because I’m not interested in that debate and everyone not wearing purple on Sundays can see that. 

1 hour ago, wackywabbit said:

If we are talking sematics "relies as much on their legs as much as their arm" makes me think Lamar should have had 36 rushing touchdowns too.

Lol, see this is what I mean. Easier to just argue something else or change the argument. 

[diamondbull424]

5 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Flat rush attempts? Dialed up QB runs? Are we seriously going to go down the road where you argue that Wilson/Watson are as run-reliant as Cam/Lamar? Or more likely, argue that because there’s not quantifiable measures that satisfy you, then there’s no distinction? Because I’m not interested in that debate and everyone not wearing purple on Sundays can see that. 

I’m confused how its just semantics, we’re talking early career Russell Wilson, ages 24-27 seasons. In such seasons he was averaging 103 rushing attempts/season; what’s more Russell Wilson’s season high rushing mark of 849 rushing yards is nearly 100 yards more than Cam Newton. I think a QB with 100 rush attempts/season seems like a fair cutoff point to classify them as a “running QB”; heck Colin Kaepernick who was equally mentioned as a running QB in this thread fell just short of this metric in his age 26-27 seasons at 98 atts/season. Deshaun Watson does not meet the 100 rush attempts threshold, having never hit it in his career (almost hit it, but no dice), thus no I would not consider him a “running QB”, but as a scrambling QB he’s certainly straddling the line very closely.

So there are quantifiable measures. Has nothing to do with just being a Ravens fan or some other kind of fan. Quoting fan bias is nonsensical in this argument. If the claim is that Kaep and Cam are running QBs along with Lamar, then what is the cutoff point for rush attempts? I find 90 rushing attempts as a reasonable cutoff.

Now that said is Lamar Jackson much MORE run reliant than Russell Wilson was as a young QB?? Absolutely, he is. That is objectively measured in his egregious 163 rush attempts average in his age 21-22 seasons. But with each of the running QBs, including Russell, at some point in their late 20s is when the injuries began to hit and they were forced to drop below that 90 rush attempts range. What’s more Lamar’s actual rush attempts/start decreased significantly from his 17 rush attempts/start (119 in his 7 starts) in 2018 down to “only” 11 rush attempts/start in his 2019 MVP campaign during his age 22 season. Russell Wilson’s above rushing attempts from early in his career are from his age 24-27 seasons, Lamar still has another season (unless CV19 changes things) before he starts his age 24 season to compare his attempts to Russell in that aspect. If he cuts down on his rushing attempts as significantly as he did from his rookie to sophomore season (35% decrease in rush attempts), due to being able to prioritize his arm over his legs more due to comfortability with reading defenses and schemes, knowing the offensive reads, protections, etc. he very well might be closer to that range Wilson saw himself in earlier in his career during those age 24-27 seasons.

It can both be true that Wilson was a running QB, while also being true that Lamar is MORE of a rushing QB. Wilson running the ball roughly 7 times per game to Lamar’s 11 times. But acting as if 90+ rush attempts for Russell Wilson wasn’t significant enough to make him a running QB, especially when his 118 rush attempts in 2014 was tied (to that point in history) for 10th all time for a QB, only behind Bobby Douglas (1x), Cam Newton (3x), Mike Vick (2x), Tim Tebow (1x), and RG3 (1x); the guy he’s tied with is one Randall Cunningham. Those are ALL running QBs, yet somehow it’s semantics to argue that Russell Wilson was equally a “running QB”? This argument is not only absurd, but it is also laughable.

The reality is clear as to what Wilson was, what he has become is something of course far more developed. This thread is about what many anticipate these QBs potentially becoming, for some Lamar being such a run heavy QB means he will instantly fail if he can’t match his rushing totals ala Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick; though for others the belief that Russell Wilson, Steve McNair, and (to a lesser degree) Randall Cunningham were able to adjust and become significantly better passers that were less reliant upon the run, shows a path for such a young QB to follow and potentially more viable than the other options in the pole. Both points are indeed fair, but one thing not arguable is whether Russell Wilson will historically belong in the category of the most prolific running QBs ever. He has just as many 90+ rush attempt seasons as Michael Vick, both in second place to Cam Newton’s 8 seasons of 90+ attempts. Russell Wilson is an excellent passer, but he is/was also one of the most prolific running QBs in NFL history.

[Soko]

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

I’m confused how its just semantics,

 

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

we’re talking early career Russell Wilson, ages 24-27 seasons. In such seasons he was averaging 103 rushing attempts/season; what’s more Russell Wilson’s season high rushing mark of 849 rushing yards is nearly 100 yards more than Cam Newton. I think a QB with 100 rush attempts/season seems like a fair cutoff point to classify them as a “running QB”; heck Colin Kaepernick who was equally mentioned as a running QB in this thread fell just short of this metric in his age 26-27 seasons at 98 atts/season. Deshaun Watson does not meet the 100 rush attempts threshold, having never hit it in his career (almost hit it, but no dice), thus no I would not consider him a “running QB”, but as a scrambling QB he’s certainly straddling the line very closely.

You just attempted to define a term being used in the discussion that doesn’t have a set definition. That’s semantics. And I don’t mean that with hostility because I essentially did the same thing. I just believe this is a bigger semantics debate than it is an actual football debate. 

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

So there are quantifiable measures. Has nothing to do with just being a Ravens fan or some other kind of fan. Quoting fan bias is nonsensical in this argument. If the claim is that Kaep and Cam are running QBs along with Lamar, then what is the cutoff point for rush attempts? I find 90 rushing attempts as a reasonable cutoff.

More semantics. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying it’s arbitrary. Why 90? Why not 85 or 95? If a guy is at 89, he wouldn’t qualify? It’s fine, whatever you believe, but pretending like it’s a set standard that we’re all agreeable on isn’t true.

And fan bias 100% exists in this conversation...

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

Now that said is Lamar Jackson much MORE run reliant than Russell Wilson was as a young QB?? Absolutely, he is. That is objectively measured in his egregious 163 rush attempts average in his age 21-22 seasons. But with each of the running QBs, including Russell, at some point in their late 20s is when the injuries began to hit and...

Which was the overlying point. Lamar and Wilson, even early Wilson, aren’t entirely comparable players but were being bunched together by some in order to put them together in the same category. I found it to be dishonest and the question about asking for stats regarding that opinion (which IMO most would agree with, including yourself) shows that some would rather debate the definitions of words than admit Lamar and Wilson aren’t similar QBs.

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

It can both be true that Wilson was a running QB, while also being true that Lamar is MORE of a rushing QB. Wilson running the ball roughly 7 times per game to Lamar’s 11 times. But acting as if 90+ rush attempts for Russell Wilson wasn’t significant enough to make him a running QB, especially when his 118 rush attempts in 2014 was tied (to that point in history) for 10th all time for a QB, only behind Bobby Douglas (1x), Cam Newton (3x), Mike Vick (2x), Tim Tebow (1x), and RG3 (1x); the guy he’s tied with is one Randall Cunningham. Those are ALL running QBs, yet somehow it’s semantics to argue that Russell Wilson was equally a “running QB”? This argument is not only absurd, but it is also laughable.

Pretending like there’s an arbitrary numerical cutoff is the funny thing. I never made one. Said earlier, I think there’s a clear distinction in the way Lamar/Cam use(d) their legs and how Wilson/Watson use(d) their legs. That’s not a knock or an indictment on anyone’s future, but - to me - it’s an easy to see observation. 

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

The reality is clear as to what Wilson was, what he has become is something of course far more developed. This thread is about what many anticipate these QBs potentially becoming, for some Lamar being such a run heavy QB means he will instantly fail if he can’t match his rushing totals ala Cam Newton and Colin Kaepernick; though for others the belief that Russell Wilson, Steve McNair, and (to a lesser degree) Randall Cunningham were able to adjust and become significantly better passers that were less reliant upon the run, shows a path for such a young QB to follow and potentially more viable than the other options in the pole.

That’s what I’m saying, basically what you just said. There’s a distinction between that group of names and some people aren’t okay with that, so they’re grouping everyone together. If they didn’t, then Lamar would be, as you say, “more” of a running QB (closer to Cam/Kaep/Vick) than a running quarterback that supplements his passing with his legs (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Rodgers), in terms of category NOT overall play.

1 minute ago, diamondbull424 said:

Both points are indeed fair, but one thing not arguable is whether Russell Wilson will historically belong in the category of the most prolific running QBs ever. He has just as many 90+ rush attempt seasons as Michael Vick, both in second place to Cam Newton’s 8 seasons of 90+ attempts. Russell Wilson is an excellent passer, but he is/was also one of the most prolific running QBs in NFL history.

I don’t view Wilson that way. I believe he’s a gifted athlete but has always been a passing quarterback with legs, rather than a running quarterback with an arm. Which is an opinion and once again, semantics because no one can really define them. 

[diamondbull424]

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

You just attempted to define a term being used in the discussion that doesn’t have a set definition. That’s semantics. And I don’t mean that with hostility because I essentially did the same thing. I just believe this is a bigger semantics debate than it is an actual football debate. 

Is this really what you’re hanging your hat on in this argument? Wilson is responsible for 5 of the top 40 rush attempts seasons for a QB in NFL history, he’s tied for second for those seasons... yet you’re going to argue that it’s somehow “semantics” to refer to him, especially earlier in his career as a prolific rushing threat at the QB position? He has more such seasons than many other players that are considered running QBs, so in any logical argument in the field of semantics there would be no argument as to his definition.

That’s like using the term “it’s all relative” in a subject just to sound woke... because by the widest definitely most everything is relative. Similar to how everything is semantics... because words always have definitions or are being defined. So sure using the widest established definition of the term semantics, Russell a Wilson is not a running QB; same way how using the widest definition of said semantics Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton are also not considered running QBs. By such a wide definition I would argue that having more passing attempts and passing TDs, both are thus considered passing QBs and not running QBs... I can do this because this is the logical pathway allotted in this argument.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

More semantics. I’m not saying you’re wrong, I’m saying it’s arbitrary. Why 90? Why not 85 or 95? If a guy is at 89, he wouldn’t qualify? It’s fine, whatever you believe, but pretending like it’s a set standard that we’re all agreeable on isn’t true.

And fan bias 100% exists in this conversation...

It’s not arbitrary. My reasoning behind the number is clear, 90 rush attempts allowed for me to include the rush attempt averages for Colin Kaepernick as he didn’t reach the 100 rush attempts average threshold otherwise, like Wilson. Most in this thread have argued that Colin Kaepernick was a “running QB” and thus to qualify the term as to what most have stated in this thread (community lexicon), the threshold was logically lowered to accommodate his inclusion.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Which was the overlying point. Lamar and Wilson, even early Wilson, aren’t entirely comparable players but were being bunched together by some in order to put them together in the same category. I found it to be dishonest and the question about asking for stats regarding that opinion (which IMO most would agree with, including yourself) shows that some would rather debate the definitions of words than admit Lamar and Wilson aren’t similar QBs.

Sure, but don’t also confuse MY overlying point. The two players aren’t comparable in age. 22 year old Russell Wilson was playing for NC State, with 143 rushing attempts on the season, 9 rushing TDs; while passing for only a 127.5 passer rating at the collegiate level. Thus he was clearly very reliant on his running ability at that stage of his development. Clearly from that point to his time at Wisconsin to his time in the NFL he has improved considerably. Thus I find it to be dishonest to compare 24 year old Wilson to 22 year old Jackson.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

Pretending like there’s an arbitrary numerical cutoff is the funny thing. I never made one. Said earlier, I think there’s a clear distinction in the way Lamar/Cam use(d) their legs and how Wilson/Watson use(d) their legs. That’s not a knock or an indictment on anyone’s future, but - to me - it’s an easy to see observation.

Of course you never made one, which allows you to act as though any claim exists “on a spectrum” and is “all relative.” By not defining what constitutes a “running QB” you can thus make any claim without valid assertion.

Exhibit A: Lamar Jackson uses his legs like Newton. I’m quite curious as to what you mean by this as they have two completely different QB and rushing styles. Perhaps you would have held more credence had you compared Cam Newton to Tim Tebow or Josh Allen; big bruising options that ran to punish defenders (while also taking more punishment).

So sure Jackson doesn’t compare to Wilson’s style at QB or as a runner, but he also doesn’t compare to Newton/Allen either.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

That’s what I’m saying, basically what you just said. There’s a distinction between that group of names and some people aren’t okay with that, so they’re grouping everyone together. If they didn’t, then Lamar would be, as you say, “more” of a running QB (closer to Cam/Kaep/Vick) than a running quarterback that supplements his passing with his legs (Wilson, Mahomes, Watson, Rodgers), in terms of category NOT overall play.

I issue with your argument is that Lamar is not any more comparable to Cam Newton than he is Russell Wilson. All three have accumulated volume rushing totals. All three have accumulated runs off of scrambles and all three have had designed runs called for them to some degree. However all three run completely different and pass off the run completely differently as well. So in neither playing style, rush attempts, or age are they comparable, making it just as flagrant to group Lamar with Newton. Young Wilson wasn’t nearly as supplemental with his running as you’re making it seem by comparing him to Mahomes/Rodgers (60/67 career single high in rush attempts). He was far closer a comparison to Newton, Allen, and Cunningham IMO.

6 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

I don’t view Wilson that way. I believe he’s a gifted athlete but has always been a passing quarterback with legs, rather than a running quarterback with an arm. Which is an opinion and once again, semantics because no one can really define them.

This is an opinion, sure. But opinions can be weighted with facts and stats to back an argument. I won’t disagree that 24 year old Wilson was a superior passer to 22 year old Jackson, that I will agree with. But the point is he’s now 23 years old. His passing skills have improved significantly from freshman to sophomore at Louisville and the same with his freshman to sophomores campaigns in the NFL. Two years of growth should for sure produce a superior QB than current Lamar, perhaps a QB with passing skills on the level of rookie Wilson.

[mtmmike]

This is not a fare discussion

1if Lamar gets traded to Cincinnati is Lamar even in this discussion no.

Due we have this discussion if Myles plays both games against Lamars team? no 

[candyman93]

Just run Lamar as much as possible. If it wins games, just do it. It’s hard winning in the nfl, can’t take that for granted.

 

Next year I’m expecting great numbers from Lamar, but a slight drop off. I’m expecting Bakers numbers to be better and the interceptions to drop. Bruce Arians (Freddie Kitchens) system is a nightmare for QBs.

[SalvadorsDeli]

1 hour ago, mtmmike said:

Due we have this discussion if Myles plays both games against Lamars team? no 

???

[mtmmike]

4 minutes ago, BaltimoreTerp said:

???

Huh

[Soko]

Lol, I’m not interested in a shouting into the wind debate comparing Lamar, Wilson, and Cam. I find it intellectually dishonest to say the way Cam utilizes his legs is similar to the way Lamar utilizes his legs (in terms of run reliance, not style of running) and it’s fine if you disagree, along with all the other purple guys in here. I’m not interested in that rabbit hole. I will respond to this though:

3 hours ago, diamondbull424 said:

Is this really what you’re hanging your hat on in this argument? Wilson is responsible for 5 of the top 40 rush attempts seasons for a QB in NFL history, he’s tied for second for those seasons... yet you’re going to argue that it’s somehow “semantics” to refer to him, especially earlier in his career as a prolific rushing threat at the QB position? He has more such seasons than many other players that are considered running QBs, so in any logical argument in the field of semantics there would be no argument as to his definition.

That’s like using the term “it’s all relative” in a subject just to sound woke... because by the widest definitely most everything is relative. Similar to how everything is semantics... because words always have definitions or are being defined. So sure using the widest established definition of the term semantics, Russell a Wilson is not a running QB; same way how using the widest definition of said semantics Lamar Jackson and Cam Newton are also not considered running QBs. By such a wide definition I would argue that having more passing attempts and passing TDs, both are thus considered passing QBs and not running QBs... I can do this because this is the logical pathway allotted in this argument.

It’s not arbitrary. My reasoning behind the number is clear, 90 rush attempts allowed for me to include the rush attempt averages for Colin Kaepernick as he didn’t reach the 100 rush attempts average threshold otherwise, like Wilson. Most in this thread have argued that Colin Kaepernick was a “running QB” and thus to qualify the term as to what most have stated in this thread (community lexicon), the threshold was logically lowered to accommodate his inclusion

Of course you never made one, which allows you to act as though any claim exists “on a spectrum” and is “all relative.” By not defining what constitutes a “running QB” you can thus make any claim without valid assertion.

It is 100% arbitrary unless you can find anything else that backs up your magical number of 90? There is a reason your definition, my definition, @SmittyBacall’s definition, don’t line up. Because it’s not a defined term and there’s no number that’ll magically give you the answer to the test. Having a reason for your definition of the word doesn’t mean it’s not arbitrary. 

Whether or not you believe your special cutoff to be valid and logical or not, it’s still a definition that you made on your own - not one that everyone follows. That’s the original message, calling this guy a runner or this guy not a runner is going to come down to how we define things more than it is football - which is semantics. 

[DawgX]

On 4/10/2020 at 11:21 AM, NYJets4716 said:

Baker mayfield is trash. He had great talent around him and still sucked.

Lamar jackson is the top guy right now.

Joe burrow had 1 mediocre college season,  then turned into a phenom the next, let's see how he does as a Bengal. 58% 16 td 5 ints first season though,  not good.

Dude, watch the games. Baker absolutely had a down year but he really didn't receive as much help as you think. Chubb and Landry were about our only consistently good players on offense last year.

[seminoles1]

Why are people even trying to compare Lamar Jackson to past "running" QBs to prove some kind of point about playoff success? The only comparable runner is Vick, and that's a non-starter considering how superior of a passer Jackson is to him.

Saying anything like "Jackson can't succeed because no other running QBs have succeeded" is based in fantasy for 2 reasons:

1. Previous QBs considered running QBs before Jackson have had plenty of success

2. Jackson is his own animal as a passer-runner. You can't say previous QBs like him haven't succeeded because there has been no QB like him

So what are you guys even arguing?

[Ray Reed]

10 minutes ago, seminoles1 said:

Why are people even trying to compare Lamar Jackson to past "running" QBs to prove some kind of point about playoff success? The only comparable runner is Vick, and that's a non-starter considering how superior of a passer Jackson is to him.

Saying anything like "Jackson can't succeed because no other running QBs have succeeded" is based in fantasy for 2 reasons:

1. Previous QBs considered running QBs before Jackson have had plenty of success

2. Jackson is his own animal as a passer-runner. You can't say previous QBs like him haven't succeeded because there has been no QB like him

So what are you guys even arguing?

""I said Lamar was going to suck in this league after his rookie season, so now I have to scrap for anything I can to possibly make me look less bad on my original take, instead of admitting that I was wrong and adapting my opinion now that there is new information to consider" is essentially the crux of the argument from that side, sadly.

[THE DUKE]

I'm not sure why people can't admit they were wrong about LJ.  I was.  I still worry about him staying healthy long term if he continues to run that much, but for now, he's the most dangerous weapon in the NFL.

[SmittyBacall]

38 minutes ago, THE DUKE said:

I'm not sure why people can't admit they were wrong about LJ.  I was.  I still worry about him staying healthy long term if he continues to run that much, but for now, he's the most dangerous weapon in the NFL.

Not going to lie, when I saw how erratic he was passing his rookie year, I thought he had no chance. He’s proving me wrong.

Moving forward I want to see more games like the playoffs versus Tennessee when he was forced to rely on his arm more.