2021 NFL Draft Thread

[BayRaider]

1 minute ago, CaliforniaKid7 said:

Because of Youtubers? PFF, TDN, DJ, etc all have him as a OT at the next level and a top 32 ranked player. Not saying they’re right but I don’t think he’s getting attention because of Youtubers. He’s ranked well in the draft community as well. 

He's Ranked 28-32 most place, which I 100% agree with, but as a Guard. And a lot of the sites you just listed have people on those sites who also think he's a Guard. 

It's not just his Arm Length.... he would have to clean up soooo much stuff just to try to play RT. 

[Jeremy408]

32 minutes ago, NYRaider said:

I just personally think Basham is a major reach at #17. It would be reminiscent of the Arnette pick at #19 last year, taking another older rookie with a "high floor/low ceiling." His testing numbers were solid but pro day numbers aren't very accurate and he has short arms and super small hands. His 32 7/8" arms and 9 1/4" hands would be some of the shortest/smallest for an edge player ever drafted in the 1st round. 

That’s the thing though. I liked Arnette when he came out last year(before we drafted him) and thought that after Okudah(Who I also wasn’t high on) it was a crapshoot. And I think what happened last year for all the corners that were picked in the first round proved that it was a crapshoot at corner last year in the draft. 

[BayRaider]

2 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

That’s the thing though. I liked Arnette when he came out last year(before we drafted him) and thought that after Okudah(Who I also wasn’t high on) it was a crapshoot. And I think what happened last year for all the corners that were picked in the first round proved that it was a crapshoot at corner last year in the draft. 

Even if it was a crapshoot after Okudah, you don't draft a CB with 30" arms in the first round. If you still think Arnette is an outside CB, I guess you will probably be pretty disappointed after this season (if Arnette even starts on the outside this year). 

[Jeremy408]

2 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

Even if it was a crapshoot after Okudah, you don't draft a CB with 30" arms in the first round. If you still think Arnette is an outside CB, I guess you will probably be pretty disappointed after this season (if Arnette even starts on the outside this year). 

Why not exactly?

[BayRaider]

8 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Why not exactly?

How many CB's are starting on the outside with 30" arms? 2% of the league? Casey Hayward the only man I can think of off the top of my head. And even if you look at the past, instead of current, the success rate of a corner on the outside with 30" arms is well under 5%. Arnette is absolutely a Nickel Corner. That was his projection going into the draft.... by literally almost everyone. 

If Arnette surprises and plays great on the outside this year... then great, I'd love to happily be proven wrong. However, history says otherwise. You cannot cover outside WR's with that arm length in most cases. And if Arnette has an "average" season, that's not proving anything. I don't want an "average" CB2, I want a solid CB2. 

With that said though, Arnette should be an absolute stud Nickel CB.

Edited April 14, 2021 by BayRaider

[Jeremy408]

1 minute ago, BayRaider said:

How many CB's are starting on the outside with 30" arms? 2% of the league? Casey Hayward the only man I can think of off the top of my head. And even if you look at the past, instead of current, the success rate of a corner on the outside with 30" arms is well under 5%. Arnette is absolutely a Nickel Corner. That was his projection going into the draft.... by literally almost everyone. 

If Arnette surprises and plays great on the outside this year great, I'd love to happily be proven wrong. However, history says otherwise. You cannot cover outside WR's with that arm length in most cases. And if Arnette has an "average" season, that's not proving anything. I don't want an "average" CB2, I want a solid CB2. 

Can you tell me personally why arm length matters for a corner?(I know the answer because I played corner most of my life. But I wanna know your perspective).

[BayRaider]

6 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Can you tell me personally why arm length matters for a corner?(I know the answer because I played corner most of my life. But I wanna know your perspective).

You need to be able to jam and arm length absolutely helps with that, also prevents quick-cut routes in the first few yards, and also when on the outside you are dealing with tall WR's. Good luck swatting a ball when a 6'2"+ WR jumps for the ball when your CB has 30" arms, odds are he isn't swatting that ball even if he's in perfect position. Although I'm sure @Rich7senacan elaborate on this better than I can, he's the CB guy around here, and also thinks Arnette is a Nickel. 

And the fact is, history doesn't lie. 30" Arms on the Outside is a historically super high failure rate. 

[Dessie]

Shaun Wade CB Ohio State ran a 4.43 today, has the H/W/S that Bradley usually likes. Supposedly played hurt last year, where do we think he could be available 4th-5th round ?  

[Rich7sena]

The way I see corner arm length is that it's one of three ways a corner can close the gap between himself and the ball. Explosion and route anticipation are the other two. Ideally, you want a guy who has at least two of the three. I think Arnette has one: route anticipation. Plus, even if a player is "there" to make a play on the ball, he has to be able to get his arms around a receiver to make a play on it.

I think he can play outside, but I would want him inside in nickel. His best traits should allow him to be a plus slot corner but only an okay outside corner.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Rich7sena

[Jeremy408]

10 minutes ago, BayRaider said:

You need to be able to jam and arm length absolutely helps with that, also prevents quick-cut routes in the first few yards, and also when on the outside you are dealing with tall WR's. Good luck swatting a ball when a 6'2"+ WR jumps for the ball when your CB has 30" arms, odds are he isn't swatting that ball even if he's in perfect position. Although I'm sure @Rich7senacan elaborate on this better than I can, he's the CB guy around here, and also thinks Arnette is a Nickel. 

And the fact is, history doesn't lie. 30" Arms on the Outside is a historically super high failure rate. 

Now this is actually a pretty good explanation. I do think there is some things you're missing though:

1. The reason why arm length matters is because Arm length+Height= whats called "length" which should give a corner the physical ability to handle bigger WRs. A huge misconception is that arm length alone means length. For example a corner that's 6 foot and has 30 inch arms is the equivalent to a corner that's 5'11 and has 31 inch arms or a 5'10 corner with 32 inch arms(Both of which there are plenty of examples of successful corners in the NFL).  The reason why you don't see a lot of corners that have 30 inch arms getting drafted in the first round is because you don't see a lot of 6 foot corners with 30 inch arms. Thats a key thing to understand. Most corners with 30 inch arms end up being nickel because they're usually also 5'10(Making them short in overall length). So a real question to ask is how many corners have you seen that are 6'0 with 30 inch arms. 

2. While arm length helps with pressing receivers it's also not the end all be all. Strength and proper technique is also something that is required. The same can be said about quick slants as well. This is why I like you mentioned, a player like Casey Hayward Who is 5'11 30 inch arms Is able to become and all pro at outside corner in a system that emphasized press coverage. 

Here is Arnette vs 2 6'4 Wrs(One of which went on to be the number one receiver on his team as a rookie)I'm throwing to by Quarterback that is expected to be the number one pick overall in this years draft. Here we see he doesn't seem to have very many problems playing press coverage against these two big receivers for the reasons I just gave.

 

[Jeremy408]

8 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

The way I see corner arm length is that it's one of three ways a corner can close the gap between himself and the ball. Explosion and route anticipation are the other two. Ideally, you want a guy who has at least two of the three. I think Arnette has one: route anticipation.

I think he can play outside, but I would want him inside in nickel. His best traits should allow him to be a plus slot corner but only an okay outside corner.

It's not necessarily arm length; it's overall length(Height+Arm length)

But I completely get your position. I can understand why someone would want to see him inside a nickel but that also doesn't mean that he can't play outside. And his college team suggest otherwise. I think a lot of what we think comes from the fact that he wasn't talked about by NFL scouts very much Because of his age and his 40 time. It also doesn't help that in the seven games he played he didn't look very good. Then again we have to all remember I

1. He wasn't the only player that had problems playing for Paul Gunther

2. Corner play always looks worse with no pass rush

3. No matter which way you slice it he was a rookie playing with no off-season

4. Every corner struggled last year that was taken in the first round

Edited April 14, 2021 by Jeremy408

[MrOaktown_56]

6 hours ago, big_palooka said:

If you had the opportunity to go Parsons, Onwuzurike in the first 2 rounds you better do that. That would be defensive changing additions.

Darrisaw Onwuzurike is a pretty crazy haul. Darrisaw could be a shutdown tackle on a rookie contract. Those are really valuable.

[Rich7sena]

Just now, Jeremy408 said:

I completely get your position. I can understand why someone would want to see him inside a nickel but that also doesn't mean that he can't play outside. And his college team suggest otherwise. I think a lot of what we think comes from the fact that he wasn't talked about by NFL scouts very much Because of his age and his 40 time. It also doesn't help that in the seven games he played he didn't look very good. Then again we have to all remember I

1. He wasn't the only player that had problems playing for Paul Gunther

2. Corner play always looks worse with no pass rush

3. No matter which way you slice it he was a rookie playing with no off-season

4. Every corner struggled last year that was taken in the first round

I don't think Arnette can't play outside. I just don't think he's more than an okay outside corner. I did a write up of what I saw in three or so games in the Defense thread. He's the team's second best outside corner, but that doesn't mean we couldn't use an upgrade. One of the reasons I would like to see him bump inside has nothing to do with length, but rather his ability to get off blocks and play the run. It won't hurt they he may see shorter receivers, too.

I didn't watch much of the other corners in his class, but I don't think all their struggles were created equal. Some coaches may have eased in their rookies more by playing more zone and others threw them in the fire and had them play man. Injuries also play a role--Arnette being one of the most oft-injured players on the roster last season.

[Jeremy408]

4 minutes ago, Rich7sena said:

I don't think Arnette can't play outside. I just don't think he's more than an okay outside corner. I did a write up of what I saw in three or so games in the Defense thread. He's the team's second best outside corner, but that doesn't mean we couldn't use an upgrade. One of the reasons I would like to see him bump inside has nothing to do with length, but rather his ability to get off blocks and play the run. It won't hurt they he may see shorter receivers, too.

I didn't watch much of the other corners in his class, but I don't think all their struggles were created equal. Some coaches may have eased in their rookies more by playing more zone and others threw them in the fire and had them play man. Injuries also play a role--Arnette being one of the most oft-injured players on the roster last season.

 I don't disagree with anything you're saying. Another thing to take into consideration as other corners we're also playing with better pass rushers and under better DC's(Who have more of a track record of developing young cornerbacks) as well. These things matter.

I just don't think that we can say this:

He had 30 inch arms+He didn't do well last year=He didn't do well last year because he has 30 inch arms.

Edited April 14, 2021 by Jeremy408

[drfrey13]

7 minutes ago, Jeremy408 said:

Now this is actually a pretty good explanation. I do think there is some things you're missing though:

1. The reason why arm length matters is because Arm length+Height= whats called "length" which should give a corner the physical ability to handle bigger WRs. A huge misconception is that arm length alone means length. For example a corner that's 6 foot and has 30 inch arms is the equivalent to a corner that's 5'11 and has 31 inch arms or a 5'10 corner with 32 inch arms(Both of which there are plenty of examples of successful corners in the NFL).  The reason why you don't see a lot of corners that have 30 inch arms getting drafted in the first round is because you don't see a lot of 6 foot corners with 30 inch arms. Thats a key thing to understand. Most corners with 30 inch arms end up being nickel because they're usually also 5'10(Making them short in overall length). So a real question to ask is how many corners have you seen that are 6'0 with 30 inch arms. 

Although I do like arm length measurement, I am not a big fan of height for DBs and receivers.  I would much rather know arm length and standing reach.  Standing reach gives a much better indication of length and catch radius.  Same issue with bench press.  For some positions I would  rather know how much you can clean, squat, and dead.  I also forgot where I saw it but there was a show that talked about the ability to decelerate and the correlation to injuries.  They used the example of the vertical leap.  They were more concerned about how well a player could decelerate once their feet hit the ground over how high they could jump.  The deceleration was of course relative to the vert height.