Training Camp Thread

[ekill08x]

5 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

I think the unfortunate reality is that Gase & Bell are simply a terrible pairing -- 

Gase is a 'system' coach & his system is predicated on everyone working in correlation to fulfill a specified role. Ideally, he has a stable of one-cut, downhill backs who are focused on forward momentum and consistency. The philosophy grinds a defense down & highlights a play-action offense. I think Bell's style of play is contradicting to what Gase is trying to accomplish. We're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

My initial reaction was to fault Gase -- I prefer a coach who caters his offense to the talent he's given. But, in fairness, I don't think Gase wanted anything to do with Bell & likely for good reason. 

We literally didnt see any of that last year. I agree these two are a terrible pairing but honestly they can both go after this year. People love to point out that Gase has a complex offense so it must be good. Complex does NOT automatically equate to good. Being a stubborn coach when your roster is beyond bad is a recipe for disaster. 

Edited August 29, 2020 by ekill08x

[Bobby816]

7 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

I think the unfortunate reality is that Gase & Bell are simply a terrible pairing -- 

Gase is a 'system' coach & his system is predicated on everyone working in correlation to fulfill a specified role. Ideally, he has a stable of one-cut, downhill backs who are focused on forward momentum and consistency. The philosophy grinds a defense down & highlights a play-action offense. I think Bell's style of play is contradicting to what Gase is trying to accomplish. We're trying to fit a square peg in a round hole.

My initial reaction was to fault Gase -- I prefer a coach who caters his offense to the talent he's given. But, in fairness, I don't think Gase wanted anything to do with Bell & likely for good reason. 

Don’t agree with the system thing. Look at what he did at WR this offseason at WR. We all “thought” his system WRs were smaller shifty guys. And we went out and got 2 guys in Perriman and Mims along with Doctson. Not the “system” guys we all thought. Where we did cater to a system was on the OL. But the way we catered to it is actually catering to the new NFL as well in more athletic guys and doing wider splits. So that actually a good thing.

[NJC33]

1 minute ago, ekill08x said:

We literally didnt see any of that last year. I agree these two are a terrible pairing but honestly they can both go after this year. People love to point out that Gase has a complex offense so it must be good. Complex does NOT automatically equate to good. Being a stubborn coach when your roster is beyond bad is a recipe for disaster. 

I never said that complex = good. 

None of what you highlighted has to equate to good, and in fact, we actually saw the exact pitfall of Gases system. The stubbornness that you alluded to infringes on his ability to prioritize player > system. Sporadically, the offense looked great - certain schematics & combination routes were really impressive. More often than not, it didn't work. The issue being, when everything & everyone aren't working in cohesion, the offense struggles.

It's not an endorsement of Gase or his offense. 

[ekill08x]

5 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

I never said that complex = good. 

None of what you highlighted has to equate to good, and in fact, we actually saw the exact pitfall of Gases system. The stubbornness that you alluded to infringes on his ability to prioritize player > system. Sporadically, the offense looked great - certain schematics & combination routes were really impressive. More often than not, it didn't work. The issue being, when everything & everyone aren't working in cohesion, the offense struggles.

It's not an endorsement of Gase or his offense. 

Not you exactly should have stated that. Yes at times the offense looked good but the inability to stick to what was working or make adjustments are a huge concern. I just get the feeling this year is going to be a disaster and this already bad team is likely going to be blown up again. 

[NJC33]

9 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

Don’t agree with the system thing. Look at what he did at WR this offseason at WR. We all “thought” his system WRs were smaller shifty guys. And we went out and got 2 guys in Perriman and Mims along with Doctson. Not the “system” guys we all thought. Where we did cater to a system was on the OL. But the way we catered to it is actually catering to the new NFL as well in more athletic guys and doing wider splits. So that actually a good thing.

The only WR that Gase has supposedly hand picked thus far has been Crowder. I firmly believe that we didn't intend (Hence the trade back) on drafting Mims, but the value was too good for Douglas to pass on. I do think the whole small/shifty narrative was overblown, mostly because we have that piece in Crowder. Perriman, in theory, would fill the DT role from Gases time in Denver.  

Anyways, Gase is most certainly a 'system' coach. His offense has always favored athletic OL best suited for a zone scheme, not necessarily just following a new age approach. 

[NJC33]

Here's a decent and objective insight into the influences of Gases system: https://www.reddit.com/r/nyjets/comments/ga6db4/breaking_down_adam_gases_offensive_scheme_and_his/

Most notably: How he relies on his skill position players to work in tandem - every route concept has a purpose & isn't simply predicated on individual matchups. This makes it easier for a quarterback to quickly dissect the opposing defenses & exploit alignment. It also requires skill position players to reach a level of consistency, which we failed to accomplish. At best, it places an immense amount of responsibility on the quarterback to make adjustments and orchestrate an attack based on pre-snap reads - Which is why Peyton speaks so highly of it.   

I'm not a Gase advocate. Again, I prefer an approach catered to specific talent, not scheme. Having said that, I can appreciate Gases methodical tendencies because I know where it's coming from and I recognize the potential reward. Truth being, a lot of our success will fall on Sam's shoulders - his ability to take ownership of the offense & alleviate Gase from having to make adjustments (Which he is unquestionably inept at doing). My issue is that I don't believe we have the personnel to make it work right now.  

 

 

 

[Bobby816]

10 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

Here's a decent and objective insight into the influences of Gases system: https://www.reddit.com/r/nyjets/comments/ga6db4/breaking_down_adam_gases_offensive_scheme_and_his/

Most notably: How he relies on his skill position players to work in tandem - every route concept has a purpose & isn't simply predicated on individual matchups. This makes it easier for a quarterback to quickly dissect the opposing defenses & exploit alignment. It also requires skill position players to reach a level of consistency, which we failed to accomplish. At best, it places an immense amount of responsibility on the quarterback to make adjustments and orchestrate an attack based on pre-snap reads - Which is why Peyton speaks so highly of it.   

I'm not a Gase advocate. Again, I prefer an approach catered to specific talent, not scheme. Having said that, I can appreciate Gases methodical tendencies because I know where it's coming from and I recognize the potential reward. Truth being, a lot of our success will fall on Sam's shoulders - his ability to take ownership of the offense & alleviate Gase from having to make adjustments (Which he is unquestionably inept at doing). My issue is that I don't believe we have the personnel to make it work right now.  

 

 

 

And that’s my point. We expect Gase to make wine out of eater at skill positions. Quite frankly Herndon is extremely overrated on this board. And Crowder is a good WR. It’s fairly easy to have a good RB in the NFL these days. But I do like Bell.

 

We can’t expect Gase to succeed with guys starting at WR who should be on the street. Mims bc of his injury I doubt even starts the season at WR for us bc of missed reps. Perriman I expect to still start, but his timing with Darnold will need work. And let’s not act like Perriman and Mims being healthy cures everything. These aren’t exactly proven regular talents we’re talking about. They’re just better than guys off the street

[NJC33]

6 minutes ago, Bobby816 said:

And that’s my point. We expect Gase to make wine out of eater at skill positions. Quite frankly Herndon is extremely overrated on this board. And Crowder is a good WR. It’s fairly easy to have a good RB in the NFL these days. But I do like Bell.

 

We can’t expect Gase to succeed with guys starting at WR who should be on the street. Mims bc of his injury I doubt even starts the season at WR for us bc of missed reps. Perriman I expect to still start, but his timing with Darnold will need work. And let’s not act like Perriman and Mims being healthy cures everything. These aren’t exactly proven regular talents we’re talking about. They’re just better than guys off the street

You said you don't agree with the system thing? I'm with you as it relates to our personnel, but not in the sense that who we have is indicative of Gases system, which appeared to be the point you initially tried making. 

[Bobby816]

2 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

You said you don't agree with the system thing? I'm with you as it relates to our personnel, but not in the sense that who we have is indicative of Gases system, which appeared to be the point you initially tried making. 

Yes I think we are close to on the same page. I guess my point is... im not ready to blame Gase for this offense not being good. Our weapons are sub par and you can’t expect Gase to make these guys great. Every Hc needs some talent to work with. And we are seeing now what just an injury or 2 can do to us at WR

[NJC33]

1 hour ago, Bobby816 said:

Yes I think we are close to on the same page. I guess my point is... im not ready to blame Gase for this offense not being good. Our weapons are sub par and you can’t expect Gase to make these guys great. Every Hc needs some talent to work with. And we are seeing now what just an injury or 2 can do to us at WR

Here's my stance on Gase: He's a brilliant football mind, who has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to succeed outside of his 'comfort zone'. Take Kyle Shanahan for a contrasting example - another coach whose scheme (theoretically) is more important than the players it embodies - Even when the 49s were a terrible team, even when adversity plagued the offense, Shanahan's scheme still prevailed to a certain extent. Whereas, for three consecutive seasons, Gases system has failed to produce at level greater than the individual parts. In that situation, it should be incumbent upon the HC to realize his own inadequacies and try something different, which I don't believe Gase has done.

So, while I believe in the right situation that Gases offense can flourish, the pitfall is equally disturbing. 

[Bobby816]

3 hours ago, NJC33 said:

Here's my stance on Gase: He's a brilliant football mind, who has repeatedly demonstrated an inability to succeed outside of his 'comfort zone'. Take Kyle Shanahan for a contrasting example - another coach whose scheme (theoretically) is more important than the players it embodies - Even when the 49s were a terrible team, even when adversity plagued the offense, Shanahan's scheme still prevailed to a certain extent. Whereas, for three consecutive seasons, Gases system has failed to produce at level greater than the individual parts. In that situation, it should be incumbent upon the HC to realize his own inadequacies and try something different, which I don't believe Gase has done.

So, while I believe in the right situation that Gases offense can flourish, the pitfall is equally disturbing. 

I see your point. But the point is leaving out the poor roster. Which quite frankly has very little to do with him. You used Shanahan as an example.... so I’ll go along with that. As an offensive mind I see that point. But what does Shanahan have that Gase doesn’t? A great OL to be flexible in Play calling and more importantly a great defense that he knows generally won’t give up a ton of points. 2 huge things. Gase has neither. We have an average to above average defense and a revamped OL that has question marks. So the apples to apples there I don’t get.

 

My point stands that we can’t blame Gase for a poor offense with what he has as weapons right now as it appears. You can’t give a guy crap and expect Gold.

[NJC33]

3 hours ago, Bobby816 said:

I see your point. But the point is leaving out the poor roster. Which quite frankly has very little to do with him. You used Shanahan as an example.... so I’ll go along with that. As an offensive mind I see that point. But what does Shanahan have that Gase doesn’t? A great OL to be flexible in Play calling and more importantly a great defense that he knows generally won’t give up a ton of points. 2 huge things. Gase has neither. We have an average to above average defense and a revamped OL that has question marks. So the apples to apples there I don’t get.

 

My point stands that we can’t blame Gase for a poor offense with what he has as weapons right now as it appears. You can’t give a guy crap and expect Gold.

The point was, "When the 49ers were terrible.. the offensive still prevailed to a certain extent." + "Gases system has failed to produce at level greater than the individual parts"

Meaning: in 17' & 18' the offense was still half-decent with Brian Hoyer, Nick Mullins & C.J beathard - without a dominate defense or offensive line. Shanahan's system proved to be more valuable than the pieces in it. I know what Gase can do with Peyton Manning, that's not my concern. 

[JetsandI]

I am not a Gase apologist but Shanahan was lucky enough to have good GM that actually set the team to match Kyle's plan.  Gase hasn't received that kind of luxury in Miami and here prior to Joe Douglas.  This year is Gase's first true team to handle.   Let's hope Gase shows true.  

 

[NJC33]

1 hour ago, JetsandI said:

I am not a Gase apologist but Shanahan was lucky enough to have good GM that actually set the team to match Kyle's plan.  Gase hasn't received that kind of luxury in Miami and here prior to Joe Douglas.  This year is Gase's first true team to handle.   Let's hope Gase shows true.  

 

Agreed - the difference being, Shanahan still produced above expectations before it became 'his team'. That's the standard I hold for a great offensive coach or system, the ability to elevate the talent you have available. There's no excuse for an offensive coach to repeatedly showcase a terrible offense.

[Bobby816]

19 minutes ago, NJC33 said:

Agreed - the difference being, Shanahan still produced above expectations before it became 'his team'. That's the standard I hold for a great offensive coach or system, the ability to elevate the talent you have available. There's no excuse for an offensive coach to repeatedly showcase a terrible offense.

Was going 7-9 with the roster we had last year not exceeding expectations? For me it was. Especially our record with Darnold actually healthy.