scar988 Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 25 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: Are we going to ignore that Jones can do everything Thomas can do, and much more given his superior athleticism, his superior route-running, his superior balance and his superior catch radius? It would have been unfair for the league pairing Jones with Brees and Payton. Ryan has been as good or better than Brees the last 4 years. Don't get it twisted because his OC's have been idiots for 3 of those 4 years. I'll agree about Payton tho. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mox Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I don't mind it that much. Replace OBJ with Adams and it's a solid list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingseanjohn Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 7 hours ago, scar988 said: 😎 Tyreek Hill (doesn't go over the middle and can't take a hit) Well that just isn't true at all 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duluther Posted July 22, 2020 Share Posted July 22, 2020 I honestly like the list. :shrug: Only change I’d make is Hopkins from #5 to #1. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diamondbull424 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 I don’t see much wrong with the list. Hopkins I would have higher, but the top 5 people are going to look for different things. Hill has a skillset that you can’t teach, so I can see him being #1... especially considering Julio, while still a freak, is no longer in his athletic prime. Id personally though have those two and Nuk in my top 3 at the position. Then Evans and Thomas would round out the top 5. Beyond that everything looks good. Would just replace Diggs with Chris Godwin... but that’s relatively close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 21 hours ago, scar988 said: "JuLiO jOnEs DoEsN't ScOrE tOuChDoWnS" What a joke of a take. Michael Thomas is the only legit scoring option outside of Alvin Kamara on the Saints offense. Atlanta has always had a good No. 2 who does just as well in the red zone as Julio so they don't have to force him the ball. Stop with the tired takes. TDs are a function of the offense. Not of the player. You forgot Jared Cook who last year had as many receiving TDs as Thomas and more than anyone on the Falcons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 22 hours ago, Shanedorf said: from twitter "The full list of WRs who have 4,000 rec yards and 40 rec TD since 2016: - Davante Adams That's the full list." And this while having Brett Hundley, quite possibly the worst QB to play as many games in the league over that time, throwing to him for over half a season. He's not at the very top, but Adams not making the list is nothing short of an embarrassment. Edited July 23, 2020 by Billy86 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 8 minutes ago, Billy86 said: You forgot Jared Cook who last year had as many receiving TDs as Thomas and more than anyone on the Falcons. Like I've said, function of the offense. Good offensive coordinators get the balls in the hands of their playmakers in the red zone. Dirk Koetter is not a good offensive coordinator. Steve Sarkisian is a slightly better one, but even he wasn't that good. The best coordinator the Falcons have ever had on offense was Kyle Shanahan, and he just did his, "let's use the doubles Julio gets to open up other guys" in the red zone offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 21 hours ago, scar988 said: "JuLiO jOnEs DoEsN't ScOrE tOuChDoWnS" What a joke of a take. Michael Thomas is the only legit scoring option outside of Alvin Kamara on the Saints offense. Atlanta has always had a good No. 2 who does just as well in the red zone as Julio so they don't have to force him the ball. Stop with the tired takes. TDs are a function of the offense. Not of the player. In the red zone, no, Cook is actually the most efficient red zone target. Every catch in the red zone from Cook went for a TD. Backup Josh Hill had 8 catches on 10 targets for 3 TDs. Smith and Taysom had 10 catches on 10 targets for 8 TDs. And no, Ridley, the #2 you speak of, does not do as well as Julio in the red zone nor does he do exceptionally well overall. 5 catches on 10 targets for 4 TDs. If anything, Hooper is the biggest benefactor in that case. The only tired take is that the only reason Julio lacks in the red zone is because everyone else gets forced the ball but him. What’s the excuse for Julio being about as proficient in the red zone as DeVante Parker (who is good, but also has not talent around him and isn’t close to Julio as a player) or Curtis Samuel? Didn’t come here to pile on Julio Jones but there’s something to be said when an offense that scores just a little better than average still isn’t going to their best player on a more consistent basis. Multiple OCs just decide to not give one of the best receivers we’ve seen more targets - not because he can’t handle it, but because why not? It’s working slightly above average might as well? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Billy86 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 21 hours ago, HTTRDynasty said: Are we going to ignore that Jones can do everything Thomas can do, and much more given his superior athleticism, his superior route-running, his superior balance and his superior catch radius? It would have been unfair for the league pairing Jones with Brees and Payton. For me they're 1A and 1B interchangeably (Antonio Brown was the top guy before he lost his mind), but I looked uo their stats on pfr and they're interesting as both have basically identical targets in that time: Julio: 604 targets, 383 catches (63.4% catch)... 5,924 yards (15.5ypc,10.1 per target)... 23 TDs, 288 first downs Thomas: 602 targets, 470 catches (78.1% catch)... 5,512 yards (11.7ypc, 9.2 per target)... 32 TDs, 306 first downs Your not the first person I've seen try to make out that Brees is in comparably better than Ryan though. Personally I don't buy that over the last four years - Brees has been the better QB over that time but not by an outlandish margin, and for a receiver like Jones might actually be the better fit over that period when you consider deep balls and the likes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: In the red zone, no, Cook is actually the most efficient red zone target. Every catch in the red zone from Cook went for a TD. Backup Josh Hill had 8 catches on 10 targets for 3 TDs. Smith and Taysom had 10 catches on 10 targets for 8 TDs. And no, Ridley, the #2 you speak of, does not do as well as Julio in the red zone nor does he do exceptionally well overall. 5 catches on 10 targets for 4 TDs. If anything, Hooper is the biggest benefactor in that case. The only tired take is that the only reason Julio lacks in the red zone is because everyone else gets forced the ball but him. What’s the excuse for Julio being about as proficient in the red zone as DeVante Parker (who is good, but also has not talent around him and isn’t close to Julio as a player) or Curtis Samuel? Didn’t come here to pile on Julio Jones but there’s something to be said when an offense that scores just a little better than average still isn’t going to their best player on a more consistent basis. Multiple OCs just decide to not give one of the best receivers we’ve seen more targets - not because he can’t handle it, but because why not? It’s working slightly above average might as well? Probably because Julio sees more double teams and shaded safeties in the red zone than he sees outside of it. Teams "know the ball is going to him" but the Falcons still just run straight plays. And those OC's who've failed with Julio aren't exactly a Who's Who of the best OCs in the NFL. They're honestly towards the bottom of NFL OC's. Mike Mularkey, Dirk Koetter, Steve Sarkisian. the only one who actually figured out how to use Julio and Ryan in the red zone perfectly was also the guy who had 13 different guys scoring receiving touchdowns in a single season in the passing offense. There's been one OC during Ryan and Julio's tenure who actually had a red zone offense that could score exceptionally well. And it happened in 2016. For one season. They're not some puzzle either. It's just been bad OC hires. And this still ignores the biggest point, TDs are the function of the offense. Not of the individual player's talent. There's also a randomness/luck factor to them. Ask any fantasy football expert about that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HTTRDynasty Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 3 minutes ago, Billy86 said: Your not the first person I've seen try to make out that Brees is in comparably better than Ryan though. Personally I don't buy that over the last four years - Brees has been the better QB over that time but not by an outlandish margin, and for a receiver like Jones might actually be the better fit over that period when you consider deep balls and the likes. It's true that the gap between Brees and Ryan is much narrower than the gap between Payton and Sarkisian/Koetter. Much, much narrower. I think we both know how much play calling matters. It's not a coincidence that Julio's only 2 All-Pro years were the 2 years Kyle Shanahan was OC. It's still a joke he only has 2 All-Pros though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scar988 Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 28 minutes ago, HTTRDynasty said: It's true that the gap between Brees and Ryan is much narrower than the gap between Payton and Sarkisian/Koetter. Much, much narrower. I think we both know how much play calling matters. It's not a coincidence that Julio's only 2 All-Pro years were the 2 years Kyle Shanahan was OC. It's still a joke he only has 2 All-Pros though. Truth. He should have more than just hte 2 first-team all-pros. But people don't want to give him recognition for some reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 (edited) 2 hours ago, scar988 said: Probably because Julio sees more double teams and shaded safeties in the red zone than he sees outside of it. Teams "know the ball is going to him" but the Falcons still just run straight play. I imagine that holds true for most of the top 15 or so wide receivers, but that’s without any of those numbers in front of me. Quote And those OC's who've failed with Julio aren't exactly a Who's Who of the best OCs in the NFL. They're honestly towards the bottom of NFL OC's. Mike Mularkey, Dirk Koetter, Steve Sarkisian. the only one who actually figured out how to use Julio and Ryan in the red zone perfectly was also the guy who had 13 different guys scoring receiving touchdowns in a single season in the passing offense. There's been one OC during Ryan and Julio's tenure who actually had a red zone offense that could score exceptionally well. And it happened in 2016. For one season. They're not some puzzle either. It's just been bad OC hires. Oddly enough, in Ryan’s best season, Julio only had 2 red zone TDs on 11 targets. Not a full context snapshot, as those all could’ve been from the 20 yard line. But still interesting, Jones had about as many catches, with less overall TDs, and less targets (all RZ) than this last season. You’re not going to see me gas up the Falcons OCs here, lol. Quote And this still ignores the biggest point, TDs are the function of the offense. Not of the individual player's talent. There's also a randomness/luck factor to them. Ask any fantasy football expert about that. They’re probably the flukiest stat in the NFL, yes. They can be products of an offense, yes. But you still expect the elite, GOATy guys to get their TDs...at least some of the time. No one got that extra special double team treatment more than Megatron IMO, and he was a guy that more often than not, got his numbers. Regardless of Nate Burleson being his #2 or dog poop being his OC. Guys like Antonio Brown or Randy Moss seemed to produce in these spots. That can’t all be on the OCs. And yeah, that’s high company to compare anyone to, but Jones is in the conversation so those are his contemporaries. EDIT: And FWIW, I’m not praising MT as this GOAT red zone guy. Nor am I saying he’s above Julio. Just pointing out that you can’t just dismiss Julio’s lack of production in the red zone. Jerry didn’t have great deep speed, Moss “never went over the middle”, TO was a locker room cancer, AB isn’t big enough - all of the greats had slights somewhere or another (other than Megatron IMO). Edited July 23, 2020 by Yin-Yang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbadbuff Posted July 23, 2020 Share Posted July 23, 2020 You’re silly if you rank MT over Julio Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts