GSUeagles14 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 44 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Which major accolades in the past 2 years? Beyond2 years isn't all that relevant in a who is currently the best discussion not who has had the best career discussion. Because McCaffrey has been better and Henry has had 1 great year I'm sure if he does it again the convo will be there for him. Just like Michael Thomas has had 2 good years and 2 elite years in his 4 year career. The past 2 seasons have shown Michael Thomas should be considered for best WR in the NFL. We can call him that since he is also that, and many others can call him the best WR in the league because he has a legit argument for it. If you disagree that's your opinion, but don't be calling people that have him #1 biased homers just because his adot isn't up to your liking. as i already said, taking @Jlowe22 advice so done debating. Just cause you asked, you left off 2 years of 2nd team all pros but managed to look up a player of the week award? What? and youre rb defense doesnt make sense either. Barkley has been up there after year 1, but he catches the ball (ie well rounded). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: as i already said, taking @Jlowe22 advice so done debating. Just cause you asked, you left off 2 years of 2nd team all pros but managed to look up a player of the week award? What? I used Pro Football Reference apparently they only list 1st team not 2nd team, but regardless doesn't change anything from the accolades portion of my post as 1st team is better than 2nd team. 24 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: and youre rb defense doesnt make sense either. Barkley has been up there after year 1, but he catches the ball (ie well rounded). RB's and WR's are generally Apples to Oranges in terms of how they are viewed as RB's often make an easier transition than WR's early on in their career. But you were the one that brought up RB's in a WR debate, so I tried my best to work with your comparison despite it clearly being flawed. I've made my point so I'm good with that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 Sorry but Tyler just thoroughly owned you all with facts and not opinions. Not one refuted him with facts. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 18 hours ago, tyler735 said: In other words, like the twilight series his argument has lacked any real depth, and hasn't evolved into anything more than adot for almost a year now looking back at previous discussions with him. On the other hand, during the course of our back and forth disagreements across numerous threads, I have shared several different stats, advanced stats, WR grades, accolades, records broken that show Michael Thomas has a legitimate case to currently be considered the top WR in. This isn't to say he is significantly better than a guy like Hopkins, or Jones, but it's absurd to me that some don't think Thomas has a legit argument as the top WR because of adot or not being a dominant deep threat. Very fair, didn't know this (although I've glanced at arguments between you two a few times, but I don't think I've dove into this particular argument - mostly because I had a dog in this race in Hopkins). Great counter and pretty thorough analysis. Thanks. 😁 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soggust Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 On 8/10/2020 at 8:40 AM, scar988 said: Film study shows that they both are true. It's not hate. It's what they are. I like complete wide receivers. Not incomplete players. Can't be the best unless you can do it all. Your Tyreek analysis is absolutely untrue. He certainly has no issue going over the middle and has one of the more diverse route trees which makes him even harder to cover given his speed. https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2020/1/6/21049744/analytics-show-tyreek-hill-among-nfls-most-versatile-receivers https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/tyreek-hill/HIL628694/season (mind that these are just completions, not all routes run) Also, I am struggling to recall Tyreek "not being able to take a hit". Maybe the AFC divisional game where he had the wind knocked out of him when he was a defenseless receiver and blindsighted with a huge hit by Justin Reid? But he returned in that game, so again not really sure where you are getting that narrative from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 21 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: Yes, Michael thomas runs an extreme amount of shorter routes, thats simply fact. Just statistically , those are going to be easier to complete Well Thomas is also one of the best at creating separation, thats not talking about being able to run past a guy cause of speed. So you have a QB who is deadly accurate with intermediate passes and a WR who is pretty much un-guardable because of the separation he is able to create, why are you going to run deep complicated routes? fivethirtyeigh just released an article a week ago about the the separation Thomas is able to create. Hell the article basically painted a picture that states that Thomas is is better than Jones. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/our-new-metric-shows-how-good-nfl-receivers-are-at-creating-separation/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 2 hours ago, buno67 said: Well Thomas is also one of the best at creating separation, thats not talking about being able to run past a guy cause of speed. So you have a QB who is deadly accurate with intermediate passes and a WR who is pretty much un-guardable because of the separation he is able to create, why are you going to run deep complicated routes? fivethirtyeigh just released an article a week ago about the the separation Thomas is able to create. Hell the article basically painted a picture that states that Thomas is is better than Jones. https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/our-new-metric-shows-how-good-nfl-receivers-are-at-creating-separation/ well it paints a picture that hes better at separation, which may very well be true. Ive consistently said thomas is a great wr, but some of those statistics are insane. 48% of his targets are within 5 yards of the los. Thats nuts. Additionally, it specifically states separation is easier to get in shorter routes and thomas isnt even creating the most separation on short routes. If cole beasley for example who creates significantly more separation than thomas on short routes gets the same volume as thomas, is he then the best wr in the league? Its also basically says that theyre only using those #s to argue who the best at getting open is, and they arent trying to make the argument that one is better than the other. so theres that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted August 15, 2020 Share Posted August 15, 2020 4 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said: well it paints a picture that hes better at separation, which may very well be true. Ive consistently said thomas is a great wr, but some of those statistics are insane. 48% of his targets are within 5 yards of the los. Thats nuts. Additionally, it specifically states separation is easier to get in shorter routes and thomas isnt even creating the most separation on short routes. If cole beasley for example who creates significantly more separation than thomas on short routes gets the same volume as thomas, is he then the best wr in the league? Its also basically says that theyre only using those #s to argue who the best at getting open is, and they arent trying to make the argument that one is better than the other. so theres that. Just ignoring the fact that they stated in the mid range intermediate routes Thomas was clearly better than jones for the past 3 season. Not just cherry picking short routes. jones is the better deep threat than Thomas and that’s the only thing he is better at than Thomas 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted August 16, 2020 Share Posted August 16, 2020 2 hours ago, buno67 said: Just ignoring the fact that they stated in the mid range intermediate routes Thomas was clearly better than jones for the past 3 season. Not just cherry picking short routes. jones is the better deep threat than Thomas and that’s the only thing he is better at than Thomas epa doesnt automatically mean better, if it did, then we'd have a very, very strange list of top wrs. Regardless of that, i think its entirely fair to say that thomas is better within x yards and jones is better after x. i dont know what that # is, if i were to fire off the hip its likely something like 11 or 12 but who knows. but whether its 10 yards or 12 or 14, theres still plenty a wr does past that, saying a wr is better inside 12 yards so hes better overall is kinda foolish. (again) even if we used epa as gospel which i really dont think people should, being absolute elite in deep balls at essentially adding no value anywhere else is more valuable than being elite at both short and intermediate passes. Thats seems to be true if we're only looking at epa.... you agree with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 Interesting article showing another metric (seems there are so many out there for the reigning Offensive Player of the Year) of how dominant Michael Thomas was last season on a variety of different routes. Technically it's an article about which WR's were most effective at 8 common routes ran by WR's...Michael Thomas was rated #1 in 4 of the 8 listed routes. https://www.nfl.com/news/top-3-nfl-wide-receivers-by-route-michael-thomas-reigns Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter2_1 Posted August 27, 2020 Share Posted August 27, 2020 3 hours ago, tyler735 said: Interesting article showing another metric (seems there are so many out there for the reigning Offensive Player of the Year) of how dominant Michael Thomas was last season on a variety of different routes. Technically it's an article about which WR's were most effective at 8 common routes ran by WR's...Michael Thomas was rated #1 in 4 of the 8 listed routes. https://www.nfl.com/news/top-3-nfl-wide-receivers-by-route-michael-thomas-reigns Pretty ridiculous, to be fair. Also, Devante Parker...damn. Maybe we underrate him. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkippyX Posted August 30, 2020 Share Posted August 30, 2020 On 7/21/2020 at 7:58 PM, ET80 said: Tyreek Hill at #1 is bold. List feels a bit click-batey (let me put this guy ahead of Julio, Thomas and Hopkins to see the reaction...) And is Mike Evans even the best WR on his own team? He had Cam Newton ahead of Brady, Brees, Wentz, and Dak last year for example. Takes any of his lists with a huge grain of salt. And yes, Mike Evans is an absolute beast. His 1157 and 8 at 17.3 per catch was in only 13 games last year. Goodwin had slightly better numbers in 14 games but compare their first 3 years in the league (or the last 3 years (less fair to Godwin)) Evans' first 3 - 3578 yards 27 TDs 15.0 per catch Evans' last 3 - 3682 yards 21 TDs 16.2 per catch Goodwin's 3 - 2700 yards 17 TDs 15.1 per catch AJ Green has had 1 healthy season in the last 3 years. I myself would not have him in a top 10 list. He was 12th in yards and 18 players had as many or more TD catches (11 way tie for 8th) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 On 8/15/2020 at 6:34 PM, buno67 said: jones is the better deep threat than Thomas and that’s the only thing he is better at than Thomas Without looking at the numbers, I think Julio’s pretty clearly the better YAC threat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
showtime Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 Honestly, I don't see much difference between the top guys like Hopkins, Jones, Thomas, etc. It's like a toss up between all of them. I don't think one guy is head and shoulders above everyone. The person I'm most interested to see this upcoming season is Odell Beckham Jr. I still think he has the potential to be the best receiver in the league, if he's healthy. Seems like that's a pretty big 'if' lately. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
buno67 Posted August 31, 2020 Share Posted August 31, 2020 7 hours ago, Yin-Yang said: Without looking at the numbers, I think Julio’s pretty clearly the better YAC threat. Past two seasons, Thomas avgs about 4.0yac per reception. Jones is 3.9yac per reception 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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