Fire Pace and Nagy

[beardown3231]

9 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

 

Crucified, by whom, exactly? Very few of us here. Not really anybody in the media--had Pace chosen the best offensive lineman instead.

And...is Nagy's system actually working, now? Is all this rampant production, and scoring, the result of adding a developmental tight end to the roster?

It doesn't matter. I've said as much. Johnson is very good already, likely to be even better when he develops. How much closer has it gotten them to the Super Bowl this year? It hasn't. It was a long term move by a guy who should have been thinking short term. And it's a big reason why he's going to end up being fired. 

 

Pace traded a LOT to get Mack. Thinking he had his franchise quarterback nailed down. Everything Pace had been doing was geared to "immediate gratification". He designed a win-now plan, and it failed spectacularly. 

But, please...as I'm clearly out of the loop as to "how football really works"--enlighten me. 

I guess...I should automatically believe what you're saying is true, instead? That's, well, sort of a bizarre claim to make there, dude...

Very few here understand football according to him. Makes me wonder why he continues to post amongst us morons. Maybe he's just a nice guy who enjoys educating idiots

 

22 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

It would help if Kmet actually contributed something. Pace made TEs the focus of the offseason and the Bears are still underwhelming at that position.

This is the problem with Pace - even when he focuses on a position, the results are often subpar. Last offseason he brought in multiple RBs and the running game was still bad. He's focused on the interior OL for the past 2 offseasons and none of those players are more than average. At some point the focus has to turn into results.

Remember when he went all in on Robinson and Miller as the future of the WR position?

Remember when he went all in on Burton and Shaheen to fix the TE spot?

Or the QB position with Glennon and Trubisky?

He does this quite often. If I kept getting 2nd and 3rd chances, I'd keep doing it too. It's time that he faces the consequences of continuously f***ing up positions on offense

[Heinz D.]

6 hours ago, WindyCity said:

When you factor in the sheer damage done this offseason in an effort to win now that doesn’t lead to wins.

Pretty much every move Pace made this offseason was desperate and blew up in his face. It has left the Bears super exposed cap/need wise for at least 2021.

You're completely, and utterly, wrong. 

No offense, and not trying to be insulting or overly argumentative, but nothing Pace did reeked of desperation. He felt the team was going to be ascendant, regardless. Kmet was a developmental pick. Johnson was a pick he felt secure about if he decided he needed to cut or trade Fuller next season, or the one after. After that he drafted another corner...and then, finally, two offensive linemen in the seventh round. 

Pace firmly believed his team was going to compete for a championship, regardless of the last draft. And he's going to be fired because of it. 

[abstract_thought]

2 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

You're completely, and utterly, wrong. 

No offense, and not trying to be insulting or overly argumentative, but nothing Pace did reeked of desperation. He felt the team was going to be ascendant, regardless. Kmet was a developmental pick. Johnson was a pick he felt secure about if he decided he needed to cut or trade Fuller next season, or the one after. After that he drafted another corner...and then, finally, two offensive linemen in the seventh round. 

Pace firmly believed his team was going to compete for a championship, regardless of the last draft. And he's going to be fired because of it. 

I would say the draft was done with more forward-thinking. Free agency involved a win-now approach that did compromise the team's future flexibility.

[Heinz D.]

1 minute ago, abstract_thought said:

I would say the draft was done with more forward-thinking. Free agency involved a win-now approach that did compromise the team's future flexibility.

The draft was clearly about next season, and beyond. Pace thinking he had this year's championship hopes well in  hand. 

He signed Quinn, thinking he would provide everything Floyd lacked (and in many ways he was right about that, but that's sort of a different topic), and then, wow, that was pretty much it. Signed Ginn, but now he's gone. Graham was an understandable signing, even at that price tag, but...oof...

[Sugashane]

On 12/1/2020 at 2:08 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

Pace has built a good defense and a good special teams. Again, every team has flaws.  

We have a bad offense, good defense and good special teams. In comparison to the rest of the leagues to teams.....

PIT - Shoddy offense, good defense, good special teams.
BAL - Bad offense, good defense, good special teams.
KC - Good offense, average defense, bad special teams.
SEA - Good offense, bad defense, good special teams.
GB - Good offense, bad defense, bad special teams.
IND - Shoddy offense, good defense, good special teams

Sorry, new job has had some crazy hours, I just got to this.

 

Our offense is below shoddy and bad, it is incompetent. But I would argue a few of these rankings. PIT is currently 4th in PPG, BAL is 12th, IND is 9th. Do they have flaws, yes. But are better than anything we have put forth in 10 years besides Trestman's first year. Now PPG doesn't tell the entire story, we both can easily see that, otherwise KC's defense would rank better than Chicago's since they have allowed just over 1 PPG less, and PIT's offense would be nearing KC's level - which is also very false. With these terms it seems like PIT and CHI's offense are near the same level, which is clearly false. The issue with rankings being in such broad subjective terms is that it ignores all else and offers just a grouping, in this case only 3 - good, shoddy and bad. I would put it into more categories - elite, very good, good, average, below average, poor, abysmal.  With 32 teams you could get around 4-6 per category, though it should obviously be weighted more toward the mean and only a few in the elite and abysmal levels. Regardless, I would have PIT's offense as good to average (their defense aiding them much in the same way the Bears 2018 defense inflated their own PPG), but CHI's as abysmal. Also are we looking solely at the 2020 season or over the last several years. I am willing to overlook Pace's first three years in fairness to him, but the final three would be more accurate to the average output his rosters and staff produced.

Weighting should also apply to the three categories - offense, defense, and special teams are not equal IMO. I would weigh it as 45% offense, 40% defense, and 15% special teams or something similar to that. I'm also a bit unsure how to score ST accurately too, as our kicking is finally a strength but punting and punt returns are still mediocre at best. In no way should one year of good kicking mean Pace has done well there since it has been a massive failure for him up to this point. That is where we need the context of how the grading is done - 2020 or 2018 through 2020 - because if that is the case the Bears would likely be lucky to get a "below average" on ST play if looking at the last 3 years combined.

On 12/1/2020 at 2:08 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

What happens if we get a new GM who drafts a good QB  but doesn't surround him with anything else because they can't spot talent in the draft/FA to save their life?  You end up like Philip Rivers, Matt Ryan, Aaron Rodgers and every other QB who's talent has been wasted over the years. All 3 of them should have a SB win by now but they don't because the FO has ignored the defense and other key areas. Especially Rodgers. One of the best QB's of all time. he should have 2-3 rings by now but he doesn't because the FO has ignored the defense.  Packers, a perennial winning team; Good offense, bad defense. The Bears; good defense, bad offense. And 

See how this works?  Building a team is not easy and winning in the NFL is hard because it's designed that way.

Then you fire the GM and keep the QB, hopefully the rest of the team gets built up around them. You can have sustained success with a franchise QB, you can't without, not in today's NFL. I also have to respectfully disagree about all three QBs, only Rodgers IMO should have more rings. Rivers and Ryan are clearly good enough to win a ring but neither are elite guys so they would have to rely on a hot streak. Rivers has a losing record in large part because of his own playoff post-season shortcomings. He has a 14/10 TD to INT ratio and a sub-60% completion percentage in his 11 post-season games. Ryan had an electric stretch of performances in 2016's post-season run, throwing for 9 TDs and 0 INTs and over 1000 yards in 3 games. But he led the offense to a 21-3 lead at halftime, then proceeded to led an offense that punted 4 times, scored 1 TD, and then he lost a fumble for the second half. on the 5 drives outside of the TD they netted a total of less than 50 yards. Outside if that year he was also very average when against better competition, going 11/7 in his 7 other games.

Again, Rodgers should have had 2-3 more Super Bowl appearances and I likely wouldn't have bet against him, he's an all time great. But with those three I see something that stands out. 39 total starts in the postseason. The Bears franchise have had 24 playoff games TOTAL since the first Super Bowl in 1967. Aaron Rodgers will have 19 at minimum this season, he may retire with more post-season games than our franchise. Over the decades the Bears have had a lot of good to elite defenses but have lacked a franchise QB. We whiffed on Rex, Jay, and Tru, but had great defenses scattered through each of their times at the helm - for nothing. That is why the Packers are infinitely more successful over the last 20 years, QBs. Games can be won with great defenses and bad offenses, but sustained success starts at QB. That's why I want to invest 1st rounders until we find the guy. IDGAF if we have 4 1st rounders in a row and all of them are on the team at the same time. If they don't look like the guy, then you move on, invest the other 6 rounds as needed, trade back to garner more picks, whatever. But get that ******* spot right for once in this franchises history.

 

On 12/1/2020 at 2:08 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

Pace drafting another QB is a legit concern ---he's def too hands-on with the QB decisions when he shouldn't be--but his drafts in general have been pretty good in comparison to the rest of the league and I've pointed this out before. This is one thing that most Bears fans seem to be missing, for whatever reason. I'm willing to let Pace give Nagy a chance to pick his own QB, OR choose another HC and let them choose their own. We haven't seen that yet where Pace hires a new HC at the same time that we're looking for a QB. (Truth be told, I think we're going with a veteran as a starter next year with Foles as a backup) 

I don't think Nagy is a bad HC at all. He's not fit here anymore because of everything that has transpired (his fault or not) but he's not a bad coach by any means IMO.  I just think he bit off more than he could chew without realizing it when he initially took the HC/OC job and thought he could work with Mitch and this offense. I don't think he realized just how bad Mitch really was and has spent 3 years trying to adjust his play calling and gameday strategies in order to hide Mitch's and Foles deficiencies but you know what they say.....you can't always fix what is already broken.

I would have really liked to see how much different this team would've been had Nagy been the HC in 2017 and he was able to choose his own QB because Mitch's confidence already shot before Nagy even step foot in halas Hall and that was on Pace/Fox.  Pace/Fox should have rolled with the 20M long neck the entire year during Mitch's rookie season instead of throwing him into the fire with bums.... which is what ultimately killed his confidence right out the gate.

Remember Mitch in his first few rookie games when he wasn't afraid of anything and he played like it? I'm not talking about the outcome but just in general. He would extend plays and wasn't afraid to take a hit and would ALWAYS try to hit the WR past the sticks on damn near every 3rd down....regardless if it was 3rd and 20...he would try to do everything he could give the receiver a chance JUST to get a first down instead of checking it down like most QBs do. That's heart and that's playing to win. But what happened to that mitch because we haven't seen it since? Fox is what happened. Now, I'm not saying Mitch would've been good had Fox kept him on the bench but he certainly would've had a better chance 

Now, combine all of this with Nagy's inexperience as a HC/OC before Chicago and it was a disaster in the making before it had even began. 

I really believe Nagy could have success in this league. He's not a bad coach. Heck, even as much as I have been giving him crap for the last 3 years as a play caller, I don't really think he's as bad as he has shown here in Chicago and the film shows it. He has designed several plays where the skill players are wide open but unfortunately for him he hasn't had a QB who can see them, or throw the ball accurately enough to give them a chance. He's also designed some good run plays that should've gone for long yardage only to be let down because of either a) RB missed the wrong hole. B) Missed block. C) QB didn't give them a chance on a RPO when they should have.

Pace has had good drafts minus his 1st rounders. Floyd was a good player but a bust for what he was supposed to be - an EDGE. His failures there necessitated the Mack trade. Smith I am still waiting to see, but honestly he has had little in the way of consistency this season IMO. He has great splash plays but is CONSTANTLY getting swallowed up by blockers or taking false steps in the run game. I'm actually disappointed in his play there, but missing the tank 2-gapping Goldman hurts him. He has had some solid players but look how few we actually even bother to keep. Goldman, Whitehair, Jackson, Tru (shouldn't start for anyone ATM)are all the only starters from his first 3 classes combined. The others are elsewhere. From the last 3 classes we have Smith, Daniels, Miller, Nichols, Montgomery, Kmet and Johnson starting. I don't see much in star power, so to speak. He can get decent players but great players are what you build the team around, and our best players either were here previous of Pace's hire or came from other teams. His drafting might be above the mean, but isn't much to write home about IMO.

I don't think he is a bad HC, I think that is all he can do. He can't direct an offense. He can't develop QBs. He can't correct players in the heat of practice or in games from what I have read, he has to do it after a film review. Practicing 1000 reps sounds great until you find out 80 were poor reps, so you just spent the majority of your practice reinforcing bad habits. I think that is a major reason simple concepts and plays like screens have been laughable for Chicago. I don't think Nagy tried for 3 years to work around Tru, I think he spent 3 years trying to make Tru what he isn't - a pure pocket passer. And in his attempts to do that he has failed to teach Tru the basics of the spot. Footwork is still atrocious - after 3 years how has that not been bettered? All reports say Tru is the hardest worker you could hope for, so what is the weak link? I think it is Nagy's coaching. College kids constantly show improvement in footwork when they get to get reps, look at Trask and his improvement in mechanics this year. Mullen taught him, and Trask put in the work. If Tru is putting in the work, then I thin Nagy is focusing on other issues and not fixing the root of Tru's accuracy woes. Nagy is trying to teach calculus when Tru hasn't learned the foundation math like basic algebra.

I don't think Fox killed Tru's confidence. I think Nagy did. They came into 2018 with a lot of swagger, there were reports of how Tru was up and down in practice but that was expected, he had 3 new top WRs, a new TE starting, a new system installed, etc. He was raw too. Nagy ruined him and it shows by how he coached and admitted that he was expecting way more of Tru in this offense than he should have. Remember when he spoke of how Alex Smith had years in it and he was trying to push Tru into that same role? Nagy was maddeningly conservative early with the repeated screen failures, then Tru blew up on bad defenses, and when they came against better defenses Nagy couldn't adjust. Tru still was fighting, he was still scrambling and keeping us in games through the postseason loss to PHI, and I never felt that he was a ruined product until 2019. His efforts in that postseason game showed heart, well after Fox was gone. His heart dropped under Nagy, not before him. Honestly I can't say that I am confident Loggains wouldn't have produced similar results with the new additions to the offense. Tru improved in 2018 and then has regressed ever since. That is on Nagy, not Fox.

Nagy might have been able to make a number of good plays, but the players were talented enough to succeed. The failure is in execution, and that ties back to his allowance of repetitive poor reps IMO. We heard about how the defense was mauling the offense in TC a year or two ago, how OL were getting spanked and it was just allowed. That builds a lack of confidence and rhythm, and that ties to the poor execution of the play on the field. Again I think Nagy is a major issue, not a victim. 

On 12/1/2020 at 2:08 AM, JAF-N72EX said:

Going back to my point, were you ok with the Mack trade? Because you can't fix everything in the draft when you don't have the capital to do it with. If Pace had drafted OL in the 2nd instead of Kmet, fans would be bitching about Pace ignoring the TE position (the biggest hole in the offense btw). If Pace had drafted OL in the 2nd instead a JJ, fans would be bitching about Pace ignoring the CB position after watching the defense getting burned. 

Can't have your cake and eat it too. And let's stop with the assumption that drafts cure everything too. 

I was ok with the Mack trade, but that doesn't mean that Pace couldn't draft OTs. It's bewildering to say that IMO. He still HAD draft capital, and still made move to go up to get players. So clearly he had the capital, and just chose other players. Scapegoating the Mack trade for poor OL allowance is disingenuous at best IMO - not saying you are, but there are many who have that view. Look at the 2019 draft. We already dropped Howard, then made a move for Montgomery. Montgomery cost us a 3rd and 5th in 2019 and a 4th in 2020. We did get a 6th in return too though. But right there we lost 2 picks and dropped another for Montgomery, who has been ok but not worth the trade up. We kept hearing about how we needed a receiver, and that was why Howard was failing in the offense - both have averaged about 7 YPC and approx 70% catch percent, and the only reason Montgomery has an uptick in targets is because Cohen is hurt, which didn't happen when Howard was here. Hell Howard was targeted 50 times his rookie year, Monty likely won't hit that still. Nagy chose not to involve Howard as much, and Montgomery hasn't been a massive threat in the passing game like he was supposed to be.

But aside from that who outside of Montgomery has played any meaningful snaps? No one. In 2020 we were short a 4th due to the aforementioned trade but still were able to trade a 2021 4th to get Gipson - who has logged as many reps as you and I have. Could he have traded back and garnered more picks? Maybe someone else drafts Kmet, would that have made a real difference from another TE we have? I'm not convinced it would have. They already (over)invested in Graham and as of right now Kmet has seen a spike in snaps in the last 4 games - which he has put up 3 catches for 17 yards in that span... He's been a better blocker than Graham, but so has almost any TE, and likely most WRs too...

Drafts don't cure everything, but if so why did Pace have to draft a TE and CB then? Seems contradictory to say that then justify their picks in the same breath. Pace goes after who he wants and clearly he hasn't wanted to do anything but roll with mediocre OTs in Leno and Massie. He has recently invested heavily in FA recently too. The Bears invested heavily in EDGE and TE just this year. That could have gone anywhere, could have been spent on other positions, so saying they didn't have resources in draft capital or financial ability is blatantly false IMO. Pace simply doubled down and right now looks like a fool for both those deals. Does that somehow make his lack of attention to OT any better? Investing his top pick and a stupid contract both at TE, how beneficial has that been exactly?  Especially after extending them and seeing them both drop in performance. Because I have faith that Pagano can cover up a suspect CB since Fuller is opposite of him. They have two safeties that should be able to show range to cover over the top. But you know what the fans are - rightfully - bitching about? The second worse offense in the NFL. What would have helped that? OL play. Competent OL could have helped that. That would have supported the run game, which takes pressure off the crap QBs Pace has brought us. Instead we have Foles throwing 40 times per game in his starts and Tru showing regression from his lack of confidence under Nagy.

With Pace and Nagy, I don't feel that I have cake or ate it. Looking at the mess the Bears are, I feel I was told there was cake and then watched them toss the whole thing in the trash.

[Sugashane]

13 hours ago, abstract_thought said:

You're drawing a false equivalence here. Ballard is 29-32 with a team that is on the upswing. He'll likely have a winning record by the end of this season. Ted Thompson won a Super Bowl in his 5th season and built a team that consistently made the playoffs and competed. Would you rather have a GM who wins a Super Bowl or a GM who doesn't whif big time in building a defense?

Results are dictated by how you evaluate people. If you don't place importance on winning, you won't win consistently. The things that happen behind the scenes need to, after 5 years, contribute to success on the football field.

Also it needs to be pointed out that Ballard came in 2017 and Luck was out the entire year, killing their season. He can back in 2018 and they went 10-6, and then retired in the damn PRESEASON. They had 2019 still planned around him.

I'm not bashing Luck, they mismanaged his injuries repeatedly before Ballard was even there, but literally 2 of his first 3 years in IND he just lost out on his franchise QB who could have been on a HOF projection, and with Ballard at the helm I have no doubt he would have been too. That is a HELL of a lot of crap to deal with, way more than Pace has had to deal with.

 

23 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I just hope everyone remembers when the next GM gets here and we're in much worse shape than we are now. The back pedaling is going to be fun to watch. 

Hold up, if we can't judge a draft class after 11 games (which I agree with for the most part) how are you judging a GM before he even interviews for a job that isn't even open yet? lol

Honestly though, I'd rather have a season where we get trashed and go 3-13 over a 8-8 season where we miss the postseason and draft at 20. Get the chance at the higher prospects, playmakers, etc. Maybe the GM gets a real QB or star to build around. Regardless, I don't think anyone will be pining for the years of Pace in 3, 8, or 15 years. That 2018 defense will get love, but other than that he has nothing to really brag about but 1 embarrassing postseason loss. Now we lucked to a 5-1 record that will still miss the post-season, and now may have missed out on Wilson - who could have been a potential option if we had not had several bits of luck save us in a few games.

If we are in a worse position then right now it is on Pace. No QB, poor OTs, ARob may be leaving, Kmet is wildly unproven, Graham sucks, bad contract for Quinn, etc. Pace has already done enough to sabotage this season and possibly 2021.

 

[dll2000]

Thread is getting heated.   Love it.

My opinion (which is only possible correct one) is Pace has made a lot of great decisions and made some great talent finds, but not all decisions are equal in consequence.

Same with Nagy.

Let me explain:

Nagy:

Nagy is wonderful on a chalkboard, but bad in achieving execution of same from his team.   They make too many mistakes and players aren't developing and improving over time, worse they are regressing.   They lack attention to detail and fundamentals.    Even at pro level fundamentals can regress when not taught and practiced routinely.   That typically comes from over scrimmaging in practice and not enough drills and focused skill work.   Too many meetings and not enough teaching grass work.   He or someone else needed to recognize this before this season and correct it.   They did not.  You need non yes men around you to tell you these things.   This is also on Pace for not seeing it.   

Nagy is good at player and media relations and solving and minimizing off field problems.   This is not worthless or nothing.   This is an important management skill.  Phil Jackson was a crappy X and O coach, but was outstanding at above.   He smartly left X and O to Tex Winter.   This was smart on his part to use his strength and strength of people around him.

Pace:

Pace had some really good philosophies.   His stated goal was to spend money and resources on his named hard to find positions namely: QB, CB, EDGE, Ball hawking Safety.   I think he may have said OT too, I don't recall, but he never actually did it there.   And therein lies one of two major mistakes of his regime.

1) He missed at QB at top of draft.   

2) He neglected OT position.   OT is not just OT.   OTs that don't work out can often move to guard or even sometimes center and do well.   Guards and center can seldom move to OT.   He sat pat with Leno and Massie for years and at their very best they were average.  At their worst they were awful.    He actually got lucky they weren't injured more.  

He should have attacked the position high in draft and went after good FAs at least twice during his tenure.  You simply cannot win in Football with a bad offensive line or it is extremely difficult.  Maybe you can if entire rest of team is stacked, I can't really name a SB winning team that has done it off top of my head.   Maybe there is an exception or two, but you start looking at SB history and most of winners had great or really good OLs.   

 Other major mistake or perhaps bad luck is he missed in first round again and again.

Already mentioned QB, but he missed on Kevin White and Floyd and Roquan has not been worth the pick.   You need at least 50% of those high picks to not only hit, but be impact players.   Everybody misses sometimes, but that hit rate at top of draft is unacceptable.  

Then he missed at TE again and again (jury is out on Kmet).   Those last two are more forgivable, but they still happened.   

I defended Pace in past years, because he made mostly logical decisions, made some great talent finds and mostly managed cap well.   But looking at totality of circumstances now he did not correct or amend shortcomings and he has run out of real estate.

 

 

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

12 minutes ago, dll2000 said:

Thread is getting heated.   Love it.

My opinion (which is only possible correct one) is Pace has made a lot of great decisions and made some great talent finds, but not all decisions are equal in consequence.

Same with Nagy.

Let me explain:

Nagy:

Nagy is wonderful on a chalkboard, but bad in achieving execution of same from his team.   They make too many mistakes and players aren't developing and improving over time, worse they are regressing.   They lack attention to detail and fundamentals.    Even at pro level fundamentals can regress when not taught and practiced routinely.   That typically comes from over scrimmaging in practice and not enough drills and focused skill work.   Too many meetings and not enough teaching grass work.   He or someone else needed to recognize this before this season and correct it.   They did not.  You need non yes men around you to tell you these things.   This is also on Pace for not seeing it.   

Nagy is good at player and media relations and solving and minimizing off field problems.   This is not worthless or nothing.   This is an important management skill.  Phil Jackson was a crappy X and O coach, but was outstanding at above.   He smartly left X and O to Tex Winter.   This was smart on his part to use his strength and strength of people around him.

Pace:

Pace had some really good philosophies.   His stated goal was to spend money and resources on his named hard to find positions namely: QB, CB, EDGE, Ball hawking Safety.   I think he may have said OT too, I don't recall, but he never actually did it there.   And therein lies one of two major mistakes of his regime.

1) He missed at QB at top of draft.   

2) He neglected OT position.   OT is not just OT.   OTs that don't work out can often move to guard or even sometimes center and do well.   Guards and center can seldom move to OT.   He sat pat with Leno and Massie for years and at their very best they were average.  At their worst they were awful.    He actually got lucky they weren't injured more.  

He should have attacked the position high in draft and went after good FAs at least twice during his tenure.  You simply cannot win in Football with a bad offensive line or it is extremely difficult.  Maybe you can if entire rest of team is stacked, I can't really name a SB winning team that has done it off top of my head.   Maybe there is an exception or two, but you start looking at SB history and most of winners had great or really good OLs.   

 Other major mistake or perhaps bad luck is he missed in first round again and again.

Already mentioned QB, but he missed on Kevin White and Floyd and Roquan has not been worth the pick.   You need at least 50% of those high picks to not only hit, but be impact players.   Everybody misses sometimes, but that hit rate at top of draft is unacceptable.  

Then he missed at TE again and again (jury is out on Kmet).   Those last two are more forgivable, but they still happened.   

I defended Pace in past years, because he made mostly logical decisions, made some great talent finds and mostly managed cap well.   But looking at totality of circumstances now he did not correct or amend shortcomings and he has run out of real estate.

 

 

That is exactly how I feel about the staff, just more eloquently than I could say it.  I've got my pitchfork out, but will at least say something nice as I chase them around with it (but they still need to go)

[abstract_thought]

Pace has had 4 top 10 picks: Kevin White, Leonard Floyd, Mitch Trubisky, and Roquan Smith.

😬

[Heinz D.]

15 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Sorry, new job has had some crazy hours, I just got to this.

Forgot all about that! How is that going?

15 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Then you fire the GM and keep the QB, hopefully the rest of the team gets built up around them. 

Pretty much. Unless you get incredibly lucky and get a stellar, perennial playoff team with an average QB...

15 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Smith I am still waiting to see, but honestly he has had little in the way of consistency this season IMO. He has great splash plays but is CONSTANTLY getting swallowed up by blockers or taking false steps in the run game. I'm actually disappointed in his play there, but missing the tank 2-gapping Goldman hurts him

Smith is really good, at worst. Not having that superb 3-4 NT in there to eat up that space and occupy those opposing blockers is a loss that simply can't be overstated. If the Bears had better depth, or (please, God, please) end up switching to a 4-3, Smith will be absolutely fine. 

15 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I don't think Fox killed Tru's confidence. I think Nagy did. They came into 2018 with a lot of swagger, there were reports of how Tru was up and down in practice but that was expected, he had 3 new top WRs, a new TE starting, a new system installed, etc. He was raw too. Nagy ruined him and it shows by how he coached and admitted that he was expecting way more of Tru in this offense than he should have.

I...don't know about that. I give Nagy tons of grief, lay a lot (probably the majority, really) of the blame on him, but...Haywire Mitch is a real thing, and I honestly don't think it has a lot to do with coaching. We may never know just how things may have been different, but to me it seems that Trubisky just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be a good starting QB in the league.

15 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I was ok with the Mack trade, but that doesn't mean that Pace couldn't draft OTs. It's bewildering to say that IMO. 

That is a bewildering claim. Pace could have drafted OTs--lots of them, in fact. Could have drafted a center and moved Whitehair back to guard and instantly upgraded the line. Instead he drafted corners and safeties all the time. 

[Heinz D.]

23 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

I guess...I should automatically believe what you're saying is true, instead? That's, well, sort of a bizarre claim to make there, dude...

I just read that back over in a re-quote, and realized that I'm not even sure what your position on things actually is, @JAF-N72EX. Do you think things will work themselves out, or are you advocating partial change, or something different? 

[topwop1]

Guys and gals...it's finally gaining attention with the national media. This will at least put some heat on Phillips and hopefully spark some major change.

 

[WindyCity]

14 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

Guys and gals...it's finally gaining attention with the national media. This will at least put some heat on Phillips and hopefully spark some major change.

 

That is very positive. At a minimum perhaps Phillips convinces George to feed Pace to the wolves instead of him.

Self preservation is a hell of a drug.

Edited December 4, 2020 by WindyCity

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Forgot all about that! How is that going?

I'm loving it so far man. Not sure where I will end up but they have a plant we are taking over in Miami in Feb or March and they are wanting me to head that. Since I'm not as experienced my Area Manager would be there watching me and helping me get that kickstart the plant, but the cost of living is so damn expensive that we will have to do some negotiations. But really I've enjoyed everything so far. they even let me work Monday last week and come back Monday this week and get paid my full salary. IDK if all the training sites do that but it showed me how much this plant cares about your family relationships. This Christmas I will be switching to a 2 bed hotel room so my family can come back with me for a week or two too. Just awesome. I know this is just one site and there will be a lot of rough patches like all jobs but I'm looking long-term here. 

Pretty much. Unless you get incredibly lucky and get a stellar, perennial playoff team with an average QB...

Yep, and the closest to that I have seen was Flacco with the stellar team around him, but at times he played out of his mind too. I'd say he was the low end of a franchise QB at best though.

Smith is really good, at worst. Not having that superb 3-4 NT in there to eat up that space and occupy those opposing blockers is a loss that simply can't be overstated. If the Bears had better depth, or (please, God, please) end up switching to a 4-3, Smith will be absolutely fine. 

You know, he started a little slow and ramped up, then just had a bad game vs Green Bay overall I think. Maybe I was too harsh on him. I still maintain he hasn't been as consistent as a guy we had hoped for being picked in that spot, but he has been good overall. Still makes way too many misreads at this point but has the athleticism to overcome a false step here and there. I don;t think it will matter 3-4 or 4-3, he just needs to have a guy to eat up blockers. Be that a 3-4 NT, 4-3 big DTs (like Jauron's 4-3 when Urlacher first got here), or being and OLB in the 4-3. He has the talent, just needs to get that consistency.

I...don't know about that. I give Nagy tons of grief, lay a lot (probably the majority, really) of the blame on him, but...Haywire Mitch is a real thing, and I honestly don't think it has a lot to do with coaching. We may never know just how things may have been different, but to me it seems that Trubisky just doesn't have the mental fortitude to be a good starting QB in the league.

He may not, but his regression I think has to be on Nagy. His fundamentals have not improved in 3 years in any substantial way. You will see flashes where he resets his feet and makes a good throw or avoids a rusher and steps into the pocket before a throw is made, but even more often you see lead foot pointing the wrong way or a throw where he barely uses his legs and shorthops it.

At bare minimum realize he isn't a pocket QB and his mobility is what his strength is. Move the pocket, bootleg, etc and make the launch point change on the defense, that is the only way he can be productive IMO.

That is a bewildering claim. Pace could have drafted OTs--lots of them, in fact. Could have drafted a center and moved Whitehair back to guard and instantly upgraded the line. Instead he drafted corners and safeties all the time. 

Fo 'shizzle.

 

In bold above.

[WindyCity]

You can’t compete in the NFL with a bottom 5 offense.

Pace and Nagy have not shown they can improve the offense.

The Bears are not competitive with this offense and every move they made to fix it has sucked.