OBJ suffers season-ending knee injury

[VanS]

16 hours ago, ET80 said:

I'm just going to let you argue against you now...

So you're just cherry picking years to fit your argument. Or, you're being intentionally obtuse. One or the other.

Da hell is this supposed to mean?

I cited 2014 and 2015 (along with 2016 BTW) as years he put up elite stats with mediocre to bad QB play as proof to our earlier argument that OBJ could put up elite numbers with a bad QB like DeAndre Hopkins.  Then you shifted the argument by zeroing in on his ankle injury in 2017 by implying that was when his decline started.  I knew this wasn't true because I saw the per game stats in 2018 and knew they were better than the 2016 season.  I just didn't cite it initially in my earlier post because he only played 12 games that year and people mostly just look at the raw totals of a season when judging NFL players rather than the per game stats.

I did no cherry picking.  I've simply been responding to your posts as you keep shifting the argument.  You're the one who cherry picked stats to help your fallacious argument that OBJ's decline started after his ankle injury.  My last post showed that to be absolutely false and your attempt now is nothing more than more misdirection. 

[VanS]

15 hours ago, Yin-Yang said:

 

Haven't we had this same song and dance before?

I have my own method for rating players.  But if someone starts an argument with me about a player citing stats and then falsely uses those stats then I will use their own argument against them.  This all started when he brought up DeAndre Hopkins putting up elite numbers with poor QB play.   I then cited OBJ's 2014, 2015, and 2016 seasons as proof he also put up elite numbers with bad QB play in the past.  Then the argument shifted to OBJ's ankle injury in 2017 being the cause of his decline as an elite WR instead of Baker Mayfield's poor play.  That is when I countered that argument with a comparison of his 2018 (post ankle injury season) and 2016 (the year before the ankle injury).

As I said earlier I never felt there was any decline in OBJ's game because of injury because he still looked the same to me in 2018 just based on the eye test.  I only cited those stats to counter a fallacious argument started by a poster who decided to start using stats to bolster his argument.

 

[ET80]

5 hours ago, VanS said:

Da hell is this supposed to mean?

You're citing a single year pre ankle to support your argument. I'm using multiple years pre ankle to support my argument. It's fairly basic. I don't know how you're not getting it. 

We can agree two years of data > one year of data, correct? Or is that not convenient for you in this discussion?

5 hours ago, VanS said:

I did no cherry picking. 

Then why are you ignoring his 2014 and 2015 seasons when looking at his 2018 season? Were 2014/2015 pre-ankle injury? Yes? Then, why exclude them in your analysis?

5 hours ago, VanS said:

You're the one who cherry picked stats to help your fallacious argument that OBJ's decline started after his ankle injury. 

I'm including 2014/2015. Because, in your words - they happened. You're excluding them (after asking "did they not happen?") Why are you not bringing them up in comparison to 2018? Because it doesn't fit you're narrative? Is there a logical, reasonable reason you're excluding them in this discussion (after adamantly bringing them up in the first place?)

5 hours ago, VanS said:

My last post showed that to be absolutely false and your attempt now is nothing more than more misdirection. 

My successful attempt is a holistic view of everything. You're the one trying to qualify and disqualify seasons by ignoring 2014/2015 (after you brought them up). I'm willing to include every source of data on Odell Beckham. Can we say the same about you? 

Nope.

[Deadpulse]

35 minutes ago, VanS said:

I have my own method for rating players.  But if someone starts an argument with me about a player citing stats and then falsely uses those stats then I will use their own argument against them. 

lol wut

 

You don't think stats are enough to rate players but you will use it against someone if they do as if it proves your point? You realize that makes no sense right? You on the one hand state they dont matter and the other use them to show your argument just because the other debater uses it? Whether you are only using it because the opposing view uses it or not is irrelevant. It is either not viable for the debate in your eyes or it is. 

[DawgX]

2 minutes ago, Deadpulse said:

lol wut

 

You don't think stats are enough to rate players but you will use it against someone if they do as if it proves your point? You realize that makes no sense right? You on the one hand state they dont matter and the other use them to show your argument just because the other debater uses it? Whether you are only using it because the opposing view uses it or not is irrelevant. It is either not viable for the debate in your eyes or it is. 

... Do you think that matters to him?

[Deadpulse]

1 minute ago, DawgX said:

... Do you think that matters to him?

Probably not, but I needed to say it for my own sanity. 

[BrownLeader]

Not exactly sure what Van is on about in this thread but if it's that OBJ is still a #1 WR, I'm gonna have to agree.

The issue with Baker and OBJ is that Baker doesn't read defenses. That's basically it. He struggles to get past his first read. When OBJ's not on the field, no one is doubling Higgins, Peoples-Jones, Antonio Callaway, Landry or Damion Ratley. He can basically rip it to his first read. When OBJ is on the field most teams try to scheme him out and it forces Baker to do more..to get to his other reads quickly..which he's awful at. It made him just roll the dice forcing it up to Odell regardless of the coverage or leave a **** ton of yards on the field not looking at him when he was open.

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by BrownLeader

[ET80]

1 hour ago, BrownLeader said:

Not exactly sure what Van is on about in this thread but if it's that OBJ is still a #1 WR, I'm gonna have to agree.

 

On 10/25/2020 at 11:19 PM, VanS said:

LOL.  And what is your basis for this?  Lack of numbers?

OBJ is still the best or second best WR in the NFL.  This was his Randy Moss at Oakland phase.  Once he gets back to getting decent QB play he will be back to putting up elite numbers. 

He's a #1, sure. He is not 1/2 on that list. He might be in the top 10, but he's not in the top 3.

[Soko]

4 hours ago, VanS said:

Haven't we had this same song and dance before?

I have my own method for rating players.  But if someone starts an argument with me about a player citing stats and then falsely uses those stats then I will use their own argument against them.  This all started when he brought up DeAndre Hopkins putting up elite numbers with poor QB play.   I then cited OBJ's 2014, 2015, and 2016 seasons as proof he also put up elite numbers with bad QB play in the past.  Then the argument shifted to OBJ's ankle injury in 2017 being the cause of his decline as an elite WR instead of Baker Mayfield's poor play.  That is when I countered that argument with a comparison of his 2018 (post ankle injury season) and 2016 (the year before the ankle injury).

As I said earlier I never felt there was any decline in OBJ's game because of injury because he still looked the same to me in 2018 just based on the eye test.  I only cited those stats to counter a fallacious argument started by a poster who decided to start using stats to bolster his argument.

[MWil23]

[VanS]

11 hours ago, ET80 said:

You're citing a single year pre ankle to support your argument. I'm using multiple years pre ankle to support my argument. It's fairly basic. I don't know how you're not getting it. 

We can agree two years of data > one year of data, correct? Or is that not convenient for you in this discussion?

Then why are you ignoring his 2014 and 2015 seasons when looking at his 2018 season? Were 2014/2015 pre-ankle injury? Yes? Then, why exclude them in your analysis?

I'm including 2014/2015. Because, in your words - they happened. You're excluding them (after asking "did they not happen?") Why are you not bringing them up in comparison to 2018? Because it doesn't fit you're narrative? Is there a logical, reasonable reason you're excluding them in this discussion (after adamantly bringing them up in the first place?)

My successful attempt is a holistic view of everything. You're the one trying to qualify and disqualify seasons by ignoring 2014/2015 (after you brought them up). I'm willing to include every source of data on Odell Beckham. Can we say the same about you? 

Nope.

Players routinely have years where they perform better than others.  Its a part of the game.  No player has the same production every year.  There's always a natural variability.  OBJ probably didn't match the production of his first two seasons in 2016 for a number of reasons.  The most likely being Eli's game dropping off even more than before.  

What you tried to imply was OBJ had a significant drop-off in ability after the 2017 ankle injury.  If he did have a significant drop off after that ankle injury then he should not have been capable of matching ANY year before his ankle injury.  Just look at the late Kobe Bryant.  He suffered that devastating achilles injury in 2013.  Everyone who saw him play after that saw he was not the same anymore.  And the stats backed it up.  His numbers declined significantly after the injury.

If that ankle injury impacted OBJ's game then we should have seen a significant decline in his production IMMEDIATELY after the injury.  But that's not what happened.  He had a season in 2018 eerily similar to his last full healthy season in 2016.  He didn't need to match his career best production.  The fact he matched any year before the ankle injury is sufficient.  

[VanS]

11 hours ago, Deadpulse said:

lol wut

 

You don't think stats are enough to rate players but you will use it against someone if they do as if it proves your point? You realize that makes no sense right? You on the one hand state they dont matter and the other use them to show your argument just because the other debater uses it? Whether you are only using it because the opposing view uses it or not is irrelevant. It is either not viable for the debate in your eyes or it is. 

You misunderstood me.  So let me use this specific argument to explain my position:

I don't think OBJ declined as a player based on watching him play.  So if you just were talking to me I would never bring up stats.  However, if a poster comes to me with an argument that OBJ isn't elite because he isn't putting up elite numbers anymore (as was the case in this thread).  And then cites DeAndre Hopkins as proof of a WR who put up elite numbers despite poor QB play then I will obviously cite OBJ's stats from 2014-2016 showing he put up elite stats with poor QB play.  Then when that same poster says the 2017 ankle injury significantly impacted OBJ's game I will obviously cite the numbers from OBJ's 2018 season when his per game production was better than his last healthy season in 2016.

I wasn't the one who started talking stats.  Others tried to bring numbers into this debate.  Obviously if you start using stats falsely to prove your point, don't expect me to ignore the stats that counter your fallicious points.

[VanS]

9 hours ago, ET80 said:

 

He's a #1, sure. He is not 1/2 on that list. He might be in the top 10, but he's not in the top 3.

I have Julio Jones and OBJ as the top 2 WRs in the league BY A WIDE MARGIN.  They are the two most talented WRs and I rate players based on talent not production.  I do that because production is dependant on factors outside a player's control most of the time.  Especially at the WR position.  Just look at Randy Moss when he was in Oakland.  Was he not the best WR in the NFL from 2005-2006?  If not, then how did he break Jerry Rice's TD record all of a sudden in 2007 after going to New England?

Randy didn't become a worse player in Oakland.  He just didn't have the talent around him (especially at the QB position) for his production to match his talent.  Once he got back in a good situation in New England he was back to the elite production that matched his talent level.  

I believe OBJ is in his Randy Moss at Oakland phase.  I would have said Moss was still the best WR in the NFL in 2005 and 2006.  Similarly I'm not dropping OBJ during this stretch at Cleveland.  

[Hunter2_1]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Players routinely have years where they perform better than others.  Its a part of the game.  No player has the same production every year.  There's always a natural variability.  OBJ probably didn't match the production of his first two seasons in 2016 for a number of reasons.  The most likely being Eli's game dropping off even more than before.  

What you tried to imply was OBJ had a significant drop-off in ability after the 2017 ankle injury.  If he did have a significant drop off after that ankle injury then he should not have been capable of matching ANY year before his ankle injury.  Just look at the late Kobe Bryant.  He suffered that devastating achilles injury in 2013.  Everyone who saw him play after that saw he was not the same anymore.  And the stats backed it up.  His numbers declined significantly after the injury.

If that ankle injury impacted OBJ's game then we should have seen a significant decline in his production IMMEDIATELY after the injury.  But that's not what happened.  He had a season in 2018 eerily similar to his last full healthy season in 2016.  He didn't need to match his career best production.  The fact he matched any year before the ankle injury is sufficient.  

How do you explain 2019? 

Baring in mind both that he 'is either the best or second best receiver in the NFL', he put up;

-26th in yards (behind 3 TEs, behind Landry), despite being the 14th most targeted weapon in the league

107th!! in catch % with 55.64% of catches when targeted. (This is damning, he is below pretty much ALL his peers...he's bellow Gordon, Crowder, Edelman [who led leagues in drops], Agholor, Robinson, Jeffrey...you name it)

- 4 TDs only, behind the likes of Dorsett, Gallup, Sneed, Boyd, Conley, Pascal...

- 65th in YAC/reception, he's below Landry, Rudolph, Doyle, Fells...Demaryius Thomas...

- Next Gen also tracks separation, and he's so far down the list that I can't be A'd to count that far.

 

You can't tell everything from stats, for example it may be unfair comparing him to Landry if he's got more attention from the defenses, but the company he's keeping in those stats do not point to a top 3 WR. They don't even point to a top 15 receiver. 

So we've established 2016 and 2017....why was he atrocious in 2019? And given the answer to that, do you still feel confident in calling him the 2nd best WR?

 

 

Edited October 30, 2020 by Hunter2_1

[Malfatron]

1 hour ago, VanS said:

Obviously if you start using stats falsely to prove your point, don't expect me to ignore the stats that counter your fallicious points.

And if they use the stats correctly to prove their point?