OBJ suffers season-ending knee injury

[VanS]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

- Deandre Hopkins has put up All Pro seasons with TJ Yates and Tom Savage as his QB. He doesn't need elite QB play to put up the best numbers in the league.

- Keenan Allen hung up elite seasons with the corpse of Phillip Rivers. He doesn't need elite QB play to put up elite numbers.

- Mike Evans is only one of two WRs to post up 1,000 yards six seasons straight to start his career. (The other was some guy named Moss). His QB? A combination of Ryan Fitzpatrick and Jameis Winston. He didn't need elite QB play to get into this discussion.

- Michael Thomas set the single season reception record with Teddy Bridgewater for nearly half a season. He didn't need elite QB play to get into the discussion.

That's the difference between these guys and OBJ. OBJ needs elite QB play. These guys don't. 

That's why they're better WRs.

Hopkins was the only weapon on those teams.  He was force fed the ball and produced.  The Browns have more talent outside of OBJ.  When the Giants had no other playmakers and a below average QB in Eli, Odell also put up huge numbers. 

Rivers and Jameis are decent QBs.  They might turn the ball over but they still can make plays with their arms.  I wouldn't cite them as evidence for a WR putting up numbers despite poor QB play.

The Saints have a system which is why they have so much success despite who they plug-in.  Just look at how they have fared without Michael Thomas and Emmauel Sanders yesterday.  They had an undrafted rookie WR (Marquez Callaway) lead them in receptions and yards.  With that said Bridgewater is looking pretty good in Carolina this year.  I wouldn't say he's as bad as Baker right now.  

[Apparition]

6 minutes ago, VanS said:

It was the best game of his career.  But it still fits his overall pattern.  Even going back to that rookie year his believers still hang onto.  If you dig into those numbers you'll see played poorly against the good defenses he faced that year and feasted on the poor defenses.  

Baker Mayfield is not a good QB.  He just has good games ever now and then when his team plays subpar competition. 

I don't know how good he will be moving forward, but he's in his 3rd season, playing under his 3rd different head coach. A lot of guys would completely spiral in those circumstances but he's keeping his head above water. That has to count for something. 

Compare him to Darnold, Rosen and Trubisky, all of whom had to play under multiple HCs early on. 

[VanS]

1 minute ago, Starless said:

Compare him to Darnold, Rosen and Trubisky, all of whom had to play under multiple HCs early on. 

He has significantly more talent around him than those guys.  The Browns are a decent QB away from being a super bowl contender.  Just think of how much scarier they would be if Deshaun Watson was their QB instead?

Baker is simply the beneficiary of an outstanding supporting cast.  

[Apparition]

Just now, VanS said:

He has significantly more talent around him than those guys.  The Browns are a decent QB away from being a super bowl contender.  Just think of how much scarier they would be if Deshaun Watson was their QB instead?

Baker is simply the beneficiary of an outstanding supporting cast.  

I think you're blinded by the names on the marquee and not really looking at the film. OBJ isn't the guy he was with the Giants. Landry is still very good, but you also have to remember that last year, in the midst of stocking up on offensive weapons, they neglected to address the OL. 

Of course, the guy has done himself in frequently by throwing really baffling interceptions. But again, poor decision making in a young QB is something that can be coached away over time. Freddie Kitchens did him no favors at all last year, and now Stefanski seems to have him trending in the right direction. 

[DawgX]

9 minutes ago, VanS said:

He has significantly more talent around him than those guys.  The Browns are a decent QB away from being a super bowl contender.  Just think of how much scarier they would be if Deshaun Watson was their QB instead?

Baker is simply the beneficiary of an outstanding supporting cast.  

No, we're not. Our defense is one of the worst in the league. Unless we had Mahomes or Wilson as our QB, we wouldn't be Super Bowl contenders because our defense demands that our offense scores 30+ every game.

[Apparition]

also, FWIW, Washington and the Colts both have really good defenses and Mayfield played well against them. 

[AkronsWitness]

29 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Yeah, that's a torn ACL we're talking about. And what 2nd rounder are you looking for?

We would trade you our 1st and then you would trade it back to us

[ET80]

22 minutes ago, VanS said:

Hopkins was the only weapon on those teams.  He was force fed the ball and produced.

And who was Odell Beckham sharing the ball with in NY? His best years were also similar to Hopkins in terms of other assets to get the ball to. He was just as force fed.

But...when Hopkins had to share the field with Andre Johnson and Arian Foster, he still put up 1,200 yards and 10 TDs (with Ryan Fitzpatrick as the QB).

Truth be told, Odell has yet to really produce with Jarvis Landry and that two headed monster at RB. Hopkins has produced as a #2 WR and #3 option on offense.

22 minutes ago, VanS said:

Rivers and Jameis are decent QBs. 

But not "elite". You used the word "elite". They are far from it - they are below the likes of Baker Mayfield.

[ET80]

1 minute ago, AkronsWitness said:

We would trade you our 1st and then you would trade it back to us

I'll need Bill O'Brien to explain this to me...

[MSURacerDT55]

53 minutes ago, VanS said:

Or it was the Bengals.  You know the same team Baker carved up in Week 2.

Its almost like ya'll forget this has been a consistent pattern for him.  Great games against bad teams.  Awful games against good teams.  The saving grace for the Browns this year is their schedule is relatively weak so they should make the playoffs.  However, that doesn't mean you have a franchise QB.  It just means you have a 2018 Bears situation and like Trubisky we should all know by now that Mayfield isn't the answer. 

As if the Bengals aren't professionals.....there is no way you can deny the balls he threw and the placement, Bengals or not

[Soko]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

And who was Odell Beckham sharing the ball with in NY? His best years were also similar to Hopkins in terms of other assets to get the ball to. He was just as force fed.

But...when Hopkins had to share the field with Andre Johnson and Arian Foster, he still put up 1,200 yards and 10 TDs (with Ryan Fitzpatrick as the QB).

Truth be told, Odell has yet to really produce with Jarvis Landry and that two headed monster at RB. Hopkins has produced as a #2 WR and #3 option on offense.

But not "elite". You used the word "elite". They are far from it - they are below the likes of Baker Mayfield.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

What his rookie season? We still holding onto that rookie year? So let me get this straight Eli was much better with Odell but now Baker is better without him? This narrative is silly and it doesn’t even make sense.

I get it doesn’t make sense, but as someone who’s watched just about every snap of Baker’s career, it’s true.

Without OBJ Baker spreads the ball and find the open guy.  With him he forces throws to him.  Maybe because OBJ starts sulking if he’s not involved (not accusing him, idk, but his body language at times has been awful.  Not as much this season), maybe to prevent him from getting frustrated or whatever.  Whatever the reason, he does.

Most importantly, they simply have zero chemistry.  On paper they should be great, who wouldn’t do better with a great receiver, but they simply don’t connect.  Rashard Higgins had more receiving yards yesterday than all but 2 of OBJ’s career games with the Browns. Harrison Bryant had 2 TD’s yesterday from Baker.  OBJ has never done that in a season and a half.

I get it’s contradictory to what you’d expect, but they simply don’t produce together. OBJ may still have some great years ahead of him, but it’s not going to be with Baker and Baker, at least so far, has looked significantly better without him.

Oh, and OBJ top 2 in the league rn?  Lol gtfoh, it ain’t 2016 lads.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 hour ago, Starless said:

I don't know how good he will be moving forward, but he's in his 3rd season, playing under his 3rd different head coach. A lot of guys would completely spiral in those circumstances but he's keeping his head above water. That has to count for something. 

Compare him to Darnold, Rosen and Trubisky, all of whom had to play under multiple HCs early on. 

People refuse to acknowledge circumstances for some reason.

And technically it’s his 4th HC.

eta: he’s had Hue, Haley, Zimmer, Freddie, Monken, Lindley, AVP, and Stefanski pissing in his ear in just 3 years.  What type of consistency does one expect when he hasn’t had a consistent message for longer than a couple months?

Edited October 26, 2020 by LETSGOBROWNIES

[INbengalfan]

4 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

ehh I dont know about that. Im a firm believer in WR production 75% being on who is throwing them the ball. A WR cant be dominant and post great top 5 numbers if they have a garbage can throwing them the ball.

If you put OBJ in a pass happy system with a top 10 QB then he would be right next to Julio/Hopkins/Adams.

Eli was a bottom 5 QB in the league his last few years and Baker has performed like a bottom 5 QB thus far this year on top of being in a run first offense.

I don't know.  I get the point, but there have been great WRs who carry QBs.  Just look south on 71 where Gtreen was a top 5 WR despite having Andy Dalton trying to feed him the ball.  While it can be argued how much AJ's numbers would have been with a top 10 QB, you can't say Dalton kept him out of the top tier for many years.  

 

Putting him with a top 10 QB doesn't prove he's that much better.  Look at what Brady accomplished in the years he didn't have elite WRs.

[Soko]

4 hours ago, DawgX said:

No, we're not. Our defense is one of the worst in the league. Unless we had Mahomes or Wilson as our QB, we wouldn't be Super Bowl contenders because our defense demands that our offense scores 30+ every game.

How many points and yards the defense gives up doesn’t matter. They have Myles Garrett, Denzel Ward, Greedy Williams - therefore they’re an elite defense because....talent.