OBJ suffers season-ending knee injury

[Rod Johnson]

What if it isn't Baker, but the other receivers that somehow become better without OBJ?  Sunday the Browns had Higgins, Njoku, and DPJ hauling in passes that usually are "near misses" for Mayfield.  Makes him look deadly accurate instead of erratic. 

[VanS]

3 hours ago, ET80 said:

But this isn't about guy QB A being better than QB B... This is about elite QB play. You said it yourself:

None of the WRs I mentioned (outside of Julio or Adams) had elite QB play at various times in their career - in most cases, it ranged between average to below average. But, they all produced at near "best numbers in the league".

What is OBJs excuse?

Maybe I'm wrong but did 2014, 2015, and 2016 not happen?  

You talk like OBJ never put up elite numbers.  He's just not done it with Baker Mayfield in the last 1.5 years.  To me that says more about Baker than OBJ. 

[VanS]

1 hour ago, Rod Johnson said:

I wanna know how you arrive at Rivers and Winston both being better than Baker lol.  You'd have to almost use opposite arguments for each.  Baker pushes the ball more (more TD's stronger arm) than Rivers, but doesn't complete as many passes and makes more mistakes.  Winston throws more TD's, but makes more mistakes. 

Pure eye test.  I've never bought into Baker Mayfield actually being a talented player.  In college he benefitted from Lincoln Riley's system and thus far in the NFL he has benefitted from a talented supporting cast.  I would expect Winston and Rivers to perform better if they were put in the same circumstances as Mayfield.

[Soko]

1 hour ago, Rod Johnson said:

I wanna know how you arrive at Rivers and Winston both being better than Baker lol. 

College tape, I assume.

 

[Hunter2_1]

14 hours ago, Kip Smithers said:

When he’s the same old Baker or worse, we still gonna go with the narrative that Odell is holding him back?

Putting aside your obvious bias for Odell, I'd change my mind, yes. 

[ET80]

7 hours ago, VanS said:

Maybe I'm wrong but did 2014, 2015, and 2016 not happen?  

For the context of "best WR in football" it's about as relevant as looking into his eyes. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but 2016 was four years ago. Things change, skillsets deteriorate - especially after a badly broken ankle. Four years ago, you had an argument. Now, notsomuch - and that has little to do with Baker, this deterioration started in NY after his ankle snapped.

Edit: Watch the clip below. I don't think you understand how this impacts a guy who relied on short area quickness and explosion to get open. After that ankle broke, Beckham lost that quickness and explosion that made him special - which is expected, this was a catastrophic injury.

He still has a great set of hands, but that quickness to get open in his cuts and that quickness to slip multiple tackles with the ball in his hands - the traits that took him from "very good" to "elite" - those were gone after this play.

Perhaps you were unaware this happened? I mean, not sure how you missed it, but... Well, nobody's perfect.

7 hours ago, VanS said:

You talk like OBJ never put up elite numbers.

He did - four years ago, with a good ankle.

7 hours ago, VanS said:

He's just not done it with Baker Mayfield in the last 1.5 years

Take this number, double it and add one, then extrapolate for one broken ankle. That's how long it's been... back when Baker Mayfield was clapping against Kansas.

7 hours ago, VanS said:

To me that says more about Baker than OBJ. 

To me, that says more about your math skills and lack of understanding on how the human body works.

But... other than THAT...

[Hunter2_1]

4 years is a long time.

 

Just ask.....no, I can't.

[MWil23]

16 hours ago, Starless said:

I don't know how good he will be moving forward, but he's in his 3rd season, playing under his 3rd different head coach

Actually 4th different HC.

[candyman93]

8 hours ago, ET80 said:

I might be in the minority, but Thor arriving in Wakanda was the best part of the entire Infinity Saga. Visually, with the music and everyone with the "Holy crap, it's THOR! With an Axe! With a plant! AND a Rabbit! We might be able to pull this one off!!!" look on their face - I loved that scene, even moreso than the "On your Left" scene in Endgame.

It’s because it was the best part.

 

The other part was fan service.

[MSURacerDT55]

8 hours ago, VanS said:

You do know Mayfield has more tape out than this past week?  I said earlier this was the best game of his career.  I've just seen enough from him to know he isn't very good.  One great game against a bad team doesn't make the awful tape he's put out for most of the last two seasons disappear. 

Sooooo, like what's your point? no one is arguing that he is some great QB, my only argument is that once OBJ went down he seemed like he revered to 2018 Baker. Help me understand your point (If you have one)

[Kip Smithers]

Odell with a broken Eli was still much more productive ,and one of the more productive WRs in the league, than he has been with Baker and most would say Baker is better than that version of Eli. I’m not buying this decline to where he isn’t a top 10 receiver. While Eli had flaws, one of them definitely wasn’t the ability to see the field. 

[VanS]

15 hours ago, ET80 said:

For the context of "best WR in football" it's about as relevant as looking into his eyes. 

Maybe I'm wrong, but 2016 was four years ago. Things change, skillsets deteriorate - especially after a badly broken ankle. Four years ago, you had an argument. Now, notsomuch - and that has little to do with Baker, this deterioration started in NY after his ankle snapped.

Edit: Watch the clip below. I don't think you understand how this impacts a guy who relied on short area quickness and explosion to get open. After that ankle broke, Beckham lost that quickness and explosion that made him special - which is expected, this was a catastrophic injury.

He still has a great set of hands, but that quickness to get open in his cuts and that quickness to slip multiple tackles with the ball in his hands - the traits that took him from "very good" to "elite" - those were gone after this play.

Perhaps you were unaware this happened? I mean, not sure how you missed it, but... Well, nobody's perfect.

He did - four years ago, with a good ankle.

Take this number, double it and add one, then extrapolate for one broken ankle. That's how long it's been... back when Baker Mayfield was clapping against Kansas.

To me, that says more about your math skills and lack of understanding on how the human body works.

But... other than THAT...

Ok.  If you're of the mindset that ankle injury in 2017 robbed him of some of his abilities, then explain 2018?

OBJ only played 12 games that year so it throws off his overall numbers but in those 12 games he averaged 87.7 YPG (more than he did in 2016 before the ankle injury).  He was also at 13.7 yards per reception (which was higher than his 2016 mark of 13.5 yards per reception).  He had only 6 receiving TDs in those 12 games which was less per game than the 10 TDs he got in 16 starts in 2016.  So in 2018 OBJ slightly improved his receiving yards per game as well as receiving yards per reception from his pre-ankle injury 2016 season and declined slightly in terms of his receiving TDs per game.  I don't see this huge decline you are talking about in OBJ's game after the ankle injury.  The huge decline in OBJ's stats didn't start until he got to Cleveland and started playing with Mayfield.  OBJ looked very much like his regular self in 2018 with the corpse of Eli Manning throwing him the ball. 

For the record, I only dug into these numbers after you brought this up.  I typically judge players solely with the eye test and to be honest I forgot OBJ even sustained that horrific ankle injury in 2017.  That's how much he's always looked like himself to me.  I simply don't see this drop-off you are talking about.  And in this case the numbers support my notion given his production in 2018 before Mayfield and after the ankle injury.

[VanS]

11 hours ago, MSURacerDT55 said:

Sooooo, like what's your point? no one is arguing that he is some great QB, my only argument is that once OBJ went down he seemed like he revered to 2018 Baker. Help me understand your point (If you have one)

One game sample size.  At least wait a few more weeks before floating out this CRAZY theory.  If OBJ was the one holding back Mayfield then it should show itself over time rather than a one game sample.  And yes the suggestion an All-Pro receiver is holding back a QB is an insane theory that probably requires more than a single game to even be discussed seriously.

[ET80]

2 hours ago, VanS said:

Ok.  If you're of the mindset that ankle injury in 2017 robbed him of some of his abilities, then explain 2018?

2018 was a SIGNIFICANT drop from his 2014/2015/2016 season. He went from "elite" to "very good".

2 hours ago, VanS said:

OBJ only played 12 games that year so it throws off his overall numbers

2014 (11 games started): 91/1,305/13 (130 targets)

2018 (12 games started): 77/1,052/6 (124 targets)

Beckham missed games before and still exploded at an elite rate, pre-ankle. Post ankle? Notsomuch. Same number of targets too, so it's not like the opportunity to make plays didn't present itself.

2 hours ago, VanS said:

I don't see this huge decline you are talking about in OBJ's game after the ankle injury. 

So a guy going 90/1300/10 to 75/1000/5 isn't a decline to you?

So... what IS a decline to you, then?

2 hours ago, VanS said:

The huge decline in OBJ's stats didn't start until he got to Cleveland and started playing with Mayfield. 

You understand his last year in NY and his first year in Cleveland are nearly identical, right?

77/1,052/6 vs 74/1,035/4 - which one is Cleveland, which one is NY?

2 hours ago, VanS said:

I typically judge players solely with the eye test and to be honest I forgot OBJ even sustained that horrific ankle injury in 2017. 

So, if you're not seeing a decline post ankle - I have to question your eye test. You don't seem to understand what you're watching.

[candyman93]

This isn’t a knock on OBJ. I think Baker is at his best when he’s just throwing it to a bunch of different guys. I can’t explain why, but him and Rashard Higgins have AMAZING chemistry. The final drive highlighted Baker at his best.