Raiders Offense Thread 2.0:

[bucksavage1]

3 minutes ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/raiderswire.usatoday.com/2020/04/28/here-is-scouts-said-about-raiders-top-pick-wr-henry-ruggs-iii-before-nfl-draft/amp/
 

““If you expect him to come in and be your No. 1 receiver I don’t see that. He was really a specialist in their offense where they designed certain plays for him … He is fast, but when people get on him you don’t see the same speed and route running. When he gets the ball, if he has a clear path, he can go. But he’s not a make-you-miss player. I don’t think he’s timid (in traffic). But he’s not a playmaker on the ball so when bodies are around him he doesn’t catch the ball. He’s a space-vertical linear route runner that needs space to catch the ball.” 

sound familiar? I hope he proves me wrong but he looks just like he did in college imo. 

This is where your professional coaches should come up with creative ways to use talent

[NCOUGHMAN]

Just now, bucksavage1 said:

This is where your professional coaches should come up with creative ways to use talent

Imo they try but when you only catch 57% of passes thrown to you dc won’t keep giving chances. Also he’s gotta give himself a chance by doing more and making first guys miss. 

[bucksavage1]

1 minute ago, NCOUGHMAN said:

Imo they try but when you only catch 57% of passes thrown to you dc won’t keep giving chances. Also he’s gotta give himself a chance by doing more and making first guys miss. 

Ruggs should be getting touches on screens, Jet Sweeps, push passes along with WR routes

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 minutes ago, bucksavage1 said:

Ruggs should be getting touches on screens, Jet Sweeps, push passes along with WR routes

Hunter has more shakes and elusiveness than hr3. I just don’t see it in ruggs imo force feeding him won’t change that

[big_palooka]

 

[ronjon1990]

On 12/17/2020 at 3:16 PM, NCOUGHMAN said:

Hunter has more shakes and elusiveness than hr3. I just don’t see it in ruggs imo force feeding him won’t change that

This can't be said enough. 

So many people want to believe in a player they like that they think more touches will automatically mean more production. 

I stand by my draft theory in regards to players on loaded teams- you better look otherworldly. 

Ruggs got by on speed alone at Alabama- easy to do when you're on an otherwise loaded team. He's John Ross. Once you're playing against NFL caliber defenses, that only gets you so far. 

We all criticize Gruden, and rightfully so. But Agholor's drops aren't new, they were known. Ruggs is faster than Agholor, and Gruden isn't a total moron when it comes to personnell on offense. If Ruggs was showing what people think he shows, Gruden would have him running the routes we have Agholor running. 

Not to say Ruggs is a bust, because we've seen down rookie years turn into great careers, but you're absolutely correct that force feeding him will only placate fans who want Ruggs getting arbitrary touches for the sake of it. He's got work to do. Very few had him as WR1, and we all know that. He's full of potential, but that potential has to be realized before he's anointed. And looking at Alabama and the team around him and talent he played against overall, that's going to require a learning curve that filler touches aren't going to make happen overnight. 

 

[big_palooka]

29 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Ruggs got by on speed alone at Alabama- easy to do when you're on an otherwise loaded team. He's John Ross. Once you're playing against NFL caliber defenses, that only gets you so far. 

This is not accurate. Ruggs is more than a speed player. He has excellent ball skills, can high point the ball and win contested catches. He plays well through contact. He's fast both vertical and horizontal. Can stop and change direction on a dime. 

He dominated in Alabama's multilevel passing scheme all over the field. 

Calling him John Ross you've either never seen him play or you're grossly trying to downgrade him as a draft pick. He's more Desean Jackson if you need a comparison. 

The reason people want to see him get more opportunities, is because we know in any other offense without Derek Carr the kid would be lighting up stat sheets.

My #1 issue drafting Ruggs was the Gruden system and Carr would never fully utilize his ability. Nothing states that more that 2....2 damn targets on slant routes!! This is where he made splash plays at 'Bama including 3 TDs.

Hopefully they find ways to get him involved in the game plan. You don't need to force him 10 targets a game, but give him more that 3 targets. 

 

[ronjon1990]

25 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

This is not accurate. Ruggs is more than a speed player. He has excellent ball skills, can high point the ball and win contested catches. He plays well through contact. He's fast both vertical and horizontal. Can stop and change direction on a dime. 

He dominated in Alabama's multilevel passing scheme all over the field. 

Calling him John Ross you've either never seen him play or you're grossly trying to downgrade him as a draft pick. He's more Desean Jackson if you need a comparison. 

The reason people want to see him get more opportunities, is because we know in any other offense without Derek Carr the kid would be lighting up stat sheets.

My #1 issue drafting Ruggs was the Gruden system and Carr would never fully utilize his ability. Nothing states that more that 2....2 damn targets on slant routes!! This is where he made splash plays at 'Bama including 3 TDs.

Hopefully they find ways to get him involved in the game plan. You don't need to force him 10 targets a game, but give him more that 3 targets. 

 

1. He has shown virtually none of that on an NFL field aside from rare glinpses. You're projecting his success at Alabama into an NFL uniform. 

2. Great, he dominated on a college football field while surrounded by other dominant talent. That isn't a guarantee of being good in the NFL. 

3. He can have a D-Jax comparison when he proves himself- which going back to point one, he hasn't.

4. We do?  We are absolutely sure about that? He's decisively not another Corey Coleman or Kevin White or LaQuan Treadwell or Josh Doctson or Tavon Austin? 100% sure of that? Beyond all reasonable doubt? There's absolutely no possible way he could just be a bust? Because he was good at Alabama in college, where the vast majority of players he played against will never taste the NFL just by nature? Because that's the extent of your argument so far. 

5. Yep, he hasn't been run on many slant routes. Other WRs on our roster have run more. They aren't unheard of in the offense. So why are they getting them, but he's not? It couldn't possibly have to do with him not being ready or good enough right now to earn those routes, because, as you said, we are undoubtedly sure he would "be lighting up the stat sheet elsewhere". Whatsupwitdat?

6. He gets the touches he's earned. He gets looks when he gets open. So far, he's been marginally effective with the ball in his hands, but not lights out. He's been a one-trick pony. Might some of that be by flawed design? Mayhaps. But for you, being 1000% positive he would be showing up the league like Usain Bolt on a track, I suppose there's zero room for it to ever be possible for it to be that he happens to just not be NFL ready. 

[NCOUGHMAN]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

 

Why isn’t carr targeting him?

is he not open?

is he really just a decoy?

[drfrey13]

I would like to see the ball in Ruggs hands more often but:

1.  He is a rookie so he might need time

2. I am not going to say it is Carr or Ruggs but there is no chemistry there

3. Carr is known for ignoring players regardless of talent that he can not connect with on a regular basis

4. Maybe being used as a decoy and the lack of targets is putting Ruggs to sleep in games (Not an excuse but he is human)

5.  I would like to see Ruggs on the field with Mariota (Not that I think Mariota is a better passer but he might be more likely to give Ruggs some looks)

[agarcia34]

I watched a video can’t remember who did it but they mentioned the possibility of teams understanding Grudens plays by the half way mark of the season and that Grudens empty’s out his whole playbook so early that teams know what’s coming. They mentioned that Andy Reid had this issue as well. 
 

I think it’s important for Gruden to put the ego to the side and bring in some fresh young minds to help him. You can’t empty the playbook and at the stretch run have nothing left. 
 

[big_palooka]

16 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

1. He has shown virtually none of that on an NFL field aside from rare glinpses. You're projecting his success at Alabama into an NFL uniform. 

2. Great, he dominated on a college football field while surrounded by other dominant talent. That isn't a guarantee of being good in the NFL. 

3. He can have a D-Jax comparison when he proves himself- which going back to point one, he hasn't.

4. We do?  We are absolutely sure about that? He's decisively not another Corey Coleman or Kevin White or LaQuan Treadwell or Josh Doctson or Tavon Austin? 100% sure of that? Beyond all reasonable doubt? There's absolutely no possible way he could just be a bust? Because he was good at Alabama in college, where the vast majority of players he played against will never taste the NFL just by nature? Because that's the extent of your argument so far. 

5. Yep, he hasn't been run on many slant routes. Other WRs on our roster have run more. They aren't unheard of in the offense. So why are they getting them, but he's not? It couldn't possibly have to do with him not being ready or good enough right now to earn those routes, because, as you said, we are undoubtedly sure he would "be lighting up the stat sheet elsewhere". Whatsupwitdat?

6. He gets the touches he's earned. He gets looks when he gets open. So far, he's been marginally effective with the ball in his hands, but not lights out. He's been a one-trick pony. Might some of that be by flawed design? Mayhaps. But for you, being 1000% positive he would be showing up the league like Usain Bolt on a track, I suppose there's zero room for it to ever be possible for it to be that he happens to just not be NFL ready. 

A lot to unpack here.... but the simple answer, look at the above chart of his routes. It's like the Raiders didn't watch him play at Alabama. The opposite of playing to a players strengths. 

[agarcia34]

Hes is a one trick pony by the fault of Jon Gruden. Gruden has never allowed him to expand his role. Gruden has used him as a decoy the whole year. If I had a dollar for every time Ruggs went in motion on a run play or pass play I would be rich. He puts him in motion so the defense has respect it which has allowed things to open up more down field for players like Waller and company.

Also if I had a dollar for every time Gruden put Ruggs in motion and allowed him to get the ball on a jet sweep I would have 3 dollars maybe 4. 
 
There are things Ruggs need to do better, but also things Gruden needs to do better as well. Gruden got what he wanted and has shown us this year he didn’t know what to do with that. Which many of feared would be the case. 

Raiders have been awful all year in getting WRs involved in the offense. WRs have been targeted 205 times this year. That is only behind the Ravens. Think about that... only better than the Ravens. 
 

The offense runs through Waller as it should but that a bad job by Gruden on not spreading things out and getting more players involved. 
 

RBs have had a total of 101 targets 

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by agarcia34

[SilverNBlackFan]

We've given Carr two receivers who were the first taken at their position in their respective drafts in Amari and Ruggs. 

Amari was blamed, hated on and called a quitter. Dude is a consistent year in and year out 1000 yard WR. And now Ruggs is getting blamed. Let's be real, Carr doesn't get his most talented receiver the ball. He is a guy who loves to throw to his TE and Backs, and spread the ball around. Which is fine but if I were a good WR I wouldn't want to play with him.

You see Frankie liking the post criticizing Ruggs. He will be the one this off-season proclaiming Carr doesn't have enough help again.

[NCOUGHMAN]

7 minutes ago, SilverNBlackFan said:

We've given Carr two receivers who were the first taken at their position in their respective drafts in Amari and Ruggs. 

Amari was blamed, hated on and called a quitter. Dude is a consistent year in and year out 1000 yard WR. And now Ruggs is getting blamed. Let's be real, Carr doesn't get his most talented receiver the ball. He is a guy who loves to throw to his TE and Backs, and spread the ball around. Which is fine but if I were a good WR I wouldn't want to play with him.

You see Frankie liking the post criticizing Ruggs. He will be the one this off-season proclaiming Carr doesn't have enough help again.

Yup but no people will blame gruden dispute the fact carr has thrown more deep passes to wrs this year than I’ve ever seen. Ima side with carr tho. He’s finding nelly I think the fact that hr3 missed games esp early and doesn’t run good routes has him #3 on carrs fav wr list. Maybe the leg injury hurt his chances of getting chemistry with carr in the summer before camps even started. Nelly jumped hunter as Carr’s fav so carr will give a new wr a chance. Hr3 is just not consistently available or open imo. He was/is a project never got over 700 yards iirc. Imo it’s gonna take hr3 at least till year 3 to get his body physically ready to last a whole season and give himself a chance to be successful