Bears/Lions GDT 12/6/20

[topwop1]

2 hours ago, CBears019 said:

Yeah I see why fans want Nagy fired right now, but at this point I think it’s safe to say he’s done at the end of the year regardless.  I don’t know what they can realistically do that would save his job, except for management just simply deciding that they want to keep him around.

I get that people want them to get a head start on the coaching search, but I feel at this point draft position is more important.  Nagy is the teams best chance to continue this downward spiral.  Each game from here on out is critical as far as our first round pick.  It seems every year when the Bears totally suck they find themselves in a position where they’d be drafting in the top 5, but eek out 2 or 3 wins at the end of the year for pride, and their draft pick drops into the teens.

This is true. I'm good with whatever as long as everyone is gone by black Monday. 

It's more so to get a head start on the GM process that I'm concerned about.

Good coaches can be hired well into February after the SB has been awarded.

Frank Reich and Kyle Shanahan are good examples of this.

If the Bears are going to need both a new GM and coach though then now is the time to start looking at GM candidates.

 

[abstract_thought]

11 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

So are you going to give the next GM 6 more years fix the "mess left by Pace"?  Where's the line being drawn here? This seems to change.

I have heard bitching about the Pace not drafting OL, while trying to fix the strength of the team (defense), even when strapped with capital because of the Mack trade which everyone was happy about (except me). So the new GM had BETTER fix the OL RIGHT away.  But the new GM has more capital to work with so we'll see how that goes.

When the next GM gets here, if he doesn't draft several OLineman IMMEDIATELY and revamp the entire OL then I expect the same complaints. But, if he does do this and the defense takes a major fall because he was forced to ignore that aspect of the game in return, then I don't wanna hear **** from anyone. 

It's hard to build a SB team. The league is balanced and designed that way. 

It really doesn't need to be this hard. The next GM can be evaluated after a few years of work just as we've done with Pace.

And the standard of evaluation isn't build a good offensive life or build a good defense. It's build a good team. Pace has had enough time to do this. He hasn't.

[CBears019]

47 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

This is true. I'm good with whatever as long as everyone is gone by black Monday. 

It's more so to get a head start on the GM process that I'm concerned about.

Good coaches can be hired well into February after the SB has been awarded.

Frank Reich and Kyle Shanahan are good examples of this.

If the Bears are going to need both a new GM and coach though then now is the time to start looking at GM candidates.

 

Yeah I’m with you in that.  Pace can go whenever.  He’ll it’s probably mutually beneficial to cut him now if they’re going to do it after the season regardless.

[Heinz D.]

19 hours ago, WindyCity said:

They are arguably worse.

 

If that doesn’t require a nuclear reset I am not sure what does.

They have ended up being worse, and there really isn't much argument to be had. A lot of that is mental fatigue, but either way, they're worse.

18 hours ago, Sugashane said:

We should be poaching the hell out of other teams practice squads. Shut some guys down and get some young guys a chance to make a play. You're going to lose, try to at least find a few young talents that can contribute for us.

Yeah, that should have started happening a long time ago. Right after Trubisky was benched, Pace should have cut Bray and signed some young guy (practice squad or not). And then they should have kept bringing other guys in. But...he didn't, and that's when I first realized this all was likely not going to end well.

18 hours ago, WindyCity said:

That is why you fire Pace and Nagy tomorrow.

They aren’t going to do what’s best for the team long term. They will do what is best for them to save face and get another job.

But we will let them flop around like dying fish on the dock and not end it quickly.

The Bears have never fired a coach early. Not saying that's smart, or the right way to go about doing things, but it just ain't how they roll...

15 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

So are you going to give the next GM 6 more years fix the "mess left by Pace"?  Where's the line being drawn here? This seems to change.

I have heard bitching about the Pace not drafting OL, while trying to fix the strength of the team (defense), even when strapped with capital because of the Mack trade which everyone was happy about (except me). So the new GM had BETTER fix the OL RIGHT away.  But the new GM has more capital to work with so we'll see how that goes.

When the next GM gets here, if he doesn't draft several OLineman IMMEDIATELY and revamp the entire OL then I expect the same complaints. But, if he does do this and the defense takes a major fall because he was forced to ignore that aspect of the game in return, then I don't wanna hear **** from anyone. 

It's hard to build a SB team. The league is balanced and designed that way. 

It won't be some sort of major task to improve the offensive line. For some reason, Leno has become a joke out there (by and large). The next guy just has to put some effort into it. Two seventh round picks doesn't qualify as effort. 

[JAF-N72EX]

9 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I don't think the new GM has a similar mess that Pace inherited. Pace came in with a roster that was old and devoid of talent on defense. He had talent on offense that was never matched up with here too - Cutler, Jeffrey, Marshall (traded away pre-draft) and Bennett. Now we have a bottom feeder offense 6 years later. That being said unless the new guy loses the team completely like Emery I think 3 years is the minimum they should get to show noted improvement. Pace needed time to overhaul the roster but the last 3 were his years to show he is worth keeping.

The Mack trade can't constantly be an excuse for the OL sucking. He had 4 drafts prior to the Mack trade and never took a real OT unless you want to try counting on Fabujule in the 6th. He had the capital to make the moves as he saw fit, and even moved up numerous times. Pace was in control and chose not to address the spots, if he was worried about not having enough capital he could have traded back. But he traded up and mortgaged future picks, so apparently Pace himself wasn't worried about having a lack of capital. He doubled down by extending Leno and Massie, who both had decent years and got paid for being average. The value looked like it would have been there if they could at least maintain that level of play but they simply didn't. It was a swing and a miss at both tackle spots.

You can't say Pace had these last 3 years to prove himself and in the same breath say the Mack trade and the lack of draft capital/money can't be used as an excuse when the trade itself has had a major profound impact in 2 out 3 of those years because they go hand in hand. 

You also can't say that he could've drafted OL during his first 3 years while also saying that he had to rebuild the entire team that was left in shambles. You can't fix everything at once. If you rebuild in one area (i.e OL) then another area is going to get ignored (i.e TE) and you will find yourself playing catch-up. This is what makes the league so hard. 

And it's not like Pace ignored the OL in his first 3 years either. In the first year here, he drafted Grasu and signed former 1st round pick Ducasse. There were just so many other holes to fill, including the worst defense in franchise history, that it was going to take 3 years alone just to fix that mess.

The OL was good in 2018, Massie and Leno included, which is why Pace extended them and replacing good players would've made no sense at all. And again, we had no draft capital at all in the 2019 draft because of the Mack trade and we needed to find Howard's replacement with the very little capital that we did have. So even if Pace wanted to replace them his options would've been very limited. 

It's also worth mentioning that OL was playing fine to start the season until Foles was starting before the injuries/C19 started happening and we had to see Coward take a snap. The OL also played good yesterday as well. Massie was actually having his best season yet before went down with an injury, again. 

This is not to say that Pace's hands were completely tied and that there wasn't anything he could've done because that isn't true either. I wanted him to pick up Floyd's 5th year

10 hours ago, Sugashane said:

It is hard to build a SB team, but we aren't a SB team. We are a sub .500 team that has had to overachieve and get damn "lucky" to not be a 3 win team. If we were a legitimate playoff contender there would be more support but we aren't, the team sucks even with a talented defense. You have said he wanted to support the strength of the team (defense) and look how well that has worked. I said prior to the 2020 season that I just needed to see an average offense, and they have done nothing but accumulate stats against 

I never claimed we were a SB team. Only that it's hard to build one and one that takes a bit of luck. Much harder than it seems like most realize it is.  

10 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Now I'm not bashing and genuinely asking - Honestly what are your parameters for keeping Pace or how would you grade the new GM if he is fired? Its hard to draw definite lines since your teams change so much. 

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. 

10 hours ago, Sugashane said:

Do you actually think with the Mack trade not going down that he addresses the OL?

I won't pretend to know what Pace's draft board looked like. The only thing I am 100% sure about is that he would have taken a pass rusher in 2018 with the first pick. What he would've done with the extra money/picks is anyone's guess and nothing but speculation. 

That said, not in the 2019 off-season, no, as I explained above. But I do think if he had Mack's money and draft capital he would've definitely put it higher on his priority list this past offseason after what he saw in 2019, yes.

 

10 hours ago, Sugashane said:

He never took a tackle before the 6th round, his 1st round picks are poor at best - Floyd was a bust as an EDGE and we were lucky he was versatile enough to do well off-ball and Smith has been the best of the 1st rounders, but still hasn't been someone you really build a defense around.

Okay, this whole notion that Pace is terrible at drafting players is absolutely false and this is why I keep telling you guys to compare Pace to the rest of the league. Do your research people. He has actually been one of the better GMs in the league at drafting talent. He has missed, sure, but so does everyone else. You guys seem to have unrealistic expectations and are only focusing on the negatives as if the next GM is going to somehow be perfect.

Let's look at Pace's first round picks, objectively. He has 4 1st round picks in 6 years (BECAUSE OF THE MACK TRADE).

---White was regarded as the best WR in his class. He was a bust because he couldn't stay healthy in the NFL but had no sort of injury history in college, whatsoever. And by all accounts he overworked himself in the offseason which is why his body eventually gave out, per-say. So I'm not going to fault any GM for bad luck. This wasn't a Chris Williams instance where said draftee had a history of injures leading up the draft and dumbass JA decided to draft him in the first anyhow. 

---Floyd is not a bust. Is he a star? No. But he is very solid at everything and the same cannot be said for too many players. He also has 7 sacks so far this season while playing in another top-10 defense with the Rams. 

---Mitch. Bust. Big miss.

---Roquan. He's arguably been our best player on defense this year. A top defense at that. 

Now compare this to the rest of league.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

4 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

20 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

So are you going to give the next GM 6 more years fix the "mess left by Pace"?  Where's the line being drawn here? This seems to change.

I have heard bitching about the Pace not drafting OL, while trying to fix the strength of the team (defense), even when strapped with capital because of the Mack trade which everyone was happy about (except me). So the new GM had BETTER fix the OL RIGHT away.  But the new GM has more capital to work with so we'll see how that goes.

When the next GM gets here, if he doesn't draft several OLineman IMMEDIATELY and revamp the entire OL then I expect the same complaints. But, if he does do this and the defense takes a major fall because he was forced to ignore that aspect of the game in return, then I don't wanna hear **** from anyone. 

It's hard to build a SB team. The league is balanced and designed that way. 

It won't be some sort of major task to improve the offensive line. For some reason, Leno has become a joke out there (by and large).

No, it's not a major task if it can all be done this offseason.  We only need 2 OTs, 1 three down back, 1 pass rusher, 1 #1WR (since the FO didn't wanna pay Arob), and a QB before the defense needs to be revamped all over again.  Better hope the new GM is good at drafting. Oops.

 

[JAF-N72EX]

Reading back on these are hilarious to me.

I fought entire forum about Mitch. I kept saying that he was NOT the guy and everyone continued to make excuses for him. 

I wish I could find the thread where people were comparing Mitch to Goff lol.

 

HAHA, @beardown3231 tried to compare Mitch to Brees. Jesus people.

 

Continuing to defend Mitch and trying to compare Mitch to Watson LOL. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by JAF-N72EX

[topwop1]

7 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Reading back on these are hilarious to me.

I fought entire forum about Mitch. I kept saying that he was NOT the guy and everyone continued to make excuses for him. 

I wish I could find the thread where people were comparing Mitch to Goff lol.

 

HAHA, @beardown3231 tried to compare Mitch to Brees. Jesus people.

 

Continuing to defend Mitch and trying to compare Mitch to Watson LOL. 

Dude really lol..so you're going to be that guy huh? This shouldn't be a competition in who said I told you so.

We all have our opinions and I don't see anything wrong with people having gotten excited about Mitch back in 2018 when he had one of the better seasons for a Bears QB in quite some time and offered some glimpses of hope.

You shouldn't really hate on anyone for supporting and believing in any given player on this team. We all want them to succeed after all.

[JAF-N72EX]

10 minutes ago, topwop1 said:

Dude really lol..so you're going to be that guy huh? This shouldn't be a competition in who said I told you so.

We all have our opinions and I don't see anything wrong with people having gotten excited about Mitch back in 2018 when he had one of the better seasons for a Bears QB in quite some time and offered some glimpses of hope.

You shouldn't really hate on anyone for supporting and believing in any given player on this team. We all want them to succeed after all.

Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. 

The irony in all of it is funny to me.

Edited December 8, 2020 by JAF-N72EX

[Sugashane]

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You can't say Pace had these last 3 years to prove himself and in the same breath say the Mack trade and the lack of draft capital/money can't be used as an excuse when the trade itself has had a major profound impact in 2 out 3 of those years because they go hand in hand. 

You also can't say that he could've drafted OL during his first 3 years while also saying that he had to rebuild the entire team that was left in shambles. You can't fix everything at once. If you rebuild in one area (i.e OL) then another area is going to get ignored (i.e TE) and you will find yourself playing catch-up. This is what makes the league so hard. 

And it's not like Pace ignored the OL in his first 3 years either. In the first year here, he drafted Grasu and signed former 1st round pick Ducasse. There were just so many other holes to fill, including the worst defense in franchise history, that it was going to take 3 years alone just to fix that mess.

The OL was good in 2018, Massie and Leno included, which is why Pace extended them and replacing good players would've made no sense at all. And again, we had no draft capital at all in the 2019 draft because of the Mack trade and we needed to find Howard's replacement with the very little capital that we did have. So even if Pace wanted to replace them his options would've been very limited. 

It's also worth mentioning that OL was playing fine to start the season until Foles was starting before the injuries/C19 started happening and we had to see Coward take a snap. The OL also played good yesterday as well. Massie was actually having his best season yet before went down with an injury, again. 

This is not to say that Pace's hands were completely tied and that there wasn't anything he could've done because that isn't true either. I wanted him to pick up Floyd's 5th year

I never claimed we were a SB team. Only that it's hard to build one and one that takes a bit of luck. Much harder than it seems like most realize it is.  

 

I'm not sure what you mean by this. 

I won't pretend to know what Pace's draft board looked like. The only thing I am 100% sure about is that he would have taken a pass rusher in 2018 with the first pick. What he would've done with the extra money/picks is anyone's guess and nothing but speculation. 

That said, not in the 2019 off-season, no, as I explained above. But I do think if he had Mack's money and draft capital he would've definitely put it higher on his priority list this past offseason after what he saw in 2019, yes.

 

Okay, this whole notion that Pace is terrible at drafting players is absolutely false and this is why I keep telling you guys to compare Pace to the rest of the league. Do your research people. He has actually been one of the better GMs in the league at drafting talent. He has missed, sure, but so does everyone else. You guys seem to have unrealistic expectations and are only focusing on the negatives as if the next GM is going to somehow be perfect.

Let's look at Pace's first round picks, objectively. He has 4 1st round picks in 6 years (BECAUSE OF THE MACK TRADE).

---White was regarded as the best WR in his class. He was a bust because he couldn't stay healthy in the NFL but had no sort of injury history in college, whatsoever. And by all accounts he overworked himself in the offseason which is why his body eventually gave out, per-say. So I'm not going to fault any GM for bad luck. This wasn't a Chris Williams instance where said draftee had a history of injures leading up the draft and dumbass JA decided to draft him in the first anyhow. 

---Floyd is not a bust. Is he a star? No. But he is very solid at everything and the same cannot be said for too many players. He also has 7 sacks so far this season while playing in another top-10 defense with the Rams. 

---Mitch. Bust. Big miss.

---Roquan. He's arguably been our best player on defense this year. A top defense at that. 

Now compare this to the rest of league.

 

Actually I can. He made the choice to lose the capital and gain a DPOY, this is his third year with his HC paired with his 2nd overall pick at QB. These choices weren't forced on him, they were made BY him. 

Again, yes I can. He was rewarded for the 2018 season in his 4th year as Executive of the Year because of the success the team had that year. I also dont see how having 4 drafts/offseasons is "all at once" regardless of how many times you use that phrase. It's a disingenuous exaggeration. 

So we pretend that Grasu wasn't a bad pick and are supposed to be surprised a guy who started 11 games in 4 years wasnt a longterm solution? I have no issue with patching holes, but not sure how Ducasse is supposed to show he finds adequate talent on the OL.

Ok, so by his 4th season he built a great defense and after 6 he still has a bottom offense still, and the defense seems to have given up due to carrying the team. So we give him 3 years to build up the offense while the defense falls apart because you "cant fix everything at once?"

The 2018 OL was average. They were poor as in the run game and Mitch's scrambling propped up the run production. Pass blocking they were solid though, I'll happily concede that. The OTs had their best seasons and Pace thought theyd maintain or ascend, and was wrong. With your franchise QB being raw and needing developed though you need to support him on that side of the ball, I dont feel Pace has done that well.

I'm not going to say they played poorly to start the season because you're right, they did well then. But against the Lions twice, Giants and Falcons once each - not exactly great defenses. When they played the Colts they were outplayed handily. Beating up on bad groups isn't something I am going to brag about. Not saying you are but context is key. 

You mentioned Super Bowl so I thought that you were implying I had made that point somewhere. If not that is my misunderstanding. But regardless is that we aren't even a playoff caliber team. We won two games for bizarre luck that DET's RB dropped an easy TD and ATL was incompetent when Foles came in and played well above his average level of play. I believe the Giants beat us with Barkely not getting hurt too FWIW. We are a bottom 10 caliber team right now. We didnt lose our biggest stars like Mack, Fuller, and ARob, we just have poor groups and Goldman is a definite loss that was hard to adjust with. 

You have defended Pace repeatedly but never stated what your own expectations or minimum allowances would be to believe he should be fired. What are they? Does he get 4 more years and a new coach and QB to hopefully get right? Does he have to win 8 games per season to keep in good standing with you? You have a lot of strong opinions on others views but dont really state what your own are, just that you  disagree with us. What do you need to see from Pace and how quickly would you expect it? I've seen numerous posts where you clearly are pissed at our offensive production being trash. 

He may have made it a higher priority without the Mack trade... but he chose the Mack trade. I applaud having the balls to make the move and agree ot was the best move to make. The team didnt fail because of that, the defense is the only reason Nagy has a winning record. 

I never said he was terrible at drafting. I said he hasnt produced much with his first rounders and argued he is going after positions of less priority. Every GM is loaded with good and bad picks. His best players have been from FA and traded for, or like Fuller were already on the team when he got here. Idc how he finds talent, the product on the field is all I care about. 

Yes... He made the Mack trade. Has any of his picks came anywhere near Mack's level of play? No. Not sure why this has to be harped on repeatedly, he is far better than any pick Pace has made, and Pace made the decision himself. 

White was mostly considered the 2nd best WR behind Cooper iirc, though his physical gifts had people drooling about his potential. It was what had my attention for sure. I thought his size and speed would allow him to really open things up for Jeffrey in the intermediate game. But White had freak accidents. That can lessen the blow but regardless Pace made the pick after dumping Marshall. I was excited for the pick too, doesnt mean White wasnt going to suck if he stated healthy, he was raw and it is always an unknown so I'm not going to pretend I k how what he was going to be. At the end of the day he seems to have forced his own hand by cutting a talented headcase for a guy who has zero TDs in his career.

Is said Floyd was a bust as an EDGE. That was clearly the case or Pace wouldnt have needed to make the Mack trade. I noted that he was a good offball LB. But you dont trade up in the top 10 for an above average offball LB. 

Yep. Mitch has busted and in large part I believe the talent around him, especially in his first year, and lack of development can be directly tied to Nagy. Pace chose Nagy too so... 

If Smith can maintain this level of play I'll be damn happy with the pick. But he flashed his rookie year, was bad early and came on late last year, and has played well this year. This hasnt been a homerun pick by any means though. To me if you draft an offball LB top 10 then you're looking for a stud, he needs to consistently keep up this level of play. I hope he does. 

So that means he has one likely hit (Smith),  one decent player that failed at his original role (Floyd), a bust due to injury, and his biggest pick was a massive failure that he failed to properly support. I mean, he has hit 1 of 4 then. If you want to say 1 of 3 then fine but weigh them accordingly, the Tru pick was a colossal failure and far worse than White's injury woes or missing out on two firsts would be (even if Mack hadn't played damn well).

If you want to look across the league then look also at the fact that he had Mahomes and Watson available and the production between them too. Look at the points the offense puts up, the lack of offensive production in the run game, etc. Looking across the league does little but verify that Pace has been average, having strong points and weak points. Should I be impressed with average? How long should he get to actually have worthwhile production before you say enough? 

[JAF-N72EX]

@Sugashane There is so much I wanna say about this but I don't have time right now so I'll get back to it later.

You seem to somehow think that I am ignoring Pace's negatives (which I'm NOT AT ALL) but at the same time you are seemingly ignoring the positives and are not weighing them evenly. And certainly not based on most GMs.  

The amount of unrealistic expectation will always be incredible to me. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by JAF-N72EX

[BEAR FACE DOWN ARROW]

We've certainly got a range of opinions on Pace, but do you think he should stay?  

I really liked this style, and I think Nagy seems like a great guy to play for.  But the result is worse than the wins and losses, Pace built a win now team that can't win, Nagy built a team that relies on it's defense being superhuman when he was brought in to develop Mitch and build an effective offense.  They've had time, maybe not as much as I'd like but pretty much league normal.  Sorry, they seem cool and we had some great times watching their efforts, but I don't think the ownership could realistically not make huge changes for the fans and their own peace of mind.

[abstract_thought]

7 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. 

The irony in all of it is funny to me.

Are you really going to compare posters on an internet message board with an NFL GM to try to point out some type of hypocrisy? And you don't see anything wrong with this comparison?

[topwop1]

6 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. 

The irony in all of it is funny to me.

Ugh...maybe others are hating for that one specific pick but I've said many times I actually liked the Mitch pick and fully supported him throughout.

Where Pace screwed up is in not surrounding him with the proper support staff and protection.

There are lots of other reasons he should be fired besides the most glaring one, including hiring the wrong coaches and drafting multiple busts in the 1st round along signing aging players to terrible contracts this past offseason that will hurt the the team for years to come.

Unfortunately for him that's the way this business works. You've had 6 years and have little to show for it in terms of success. He also inspired little in much of fait going forward that he will get the most important position correct.

Let's face it..it didn't work and it's time to move on. Simple as that.

[beardown3231]

8 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Reading back on these are hilarious to me.

I fought entire forum about Mitch. I kept saying that he was NOT the guy and everyone continued to make excuses for him. 

I wish I could find the thread where people were comparing Mitch to Goff lol.

 

HAHA, @beardown3231 tried to compare Mitch to Brees. Jesus people.

 

Continuing to defend Mitch and trying to compare Mitch to Watson LOL. 

What is your point? We were excited that Mitch had great tools and great moments. He was taken #2 overall. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. He sucks now. Wow I was wrong that I thought Mitch would be good. Crucify me why don't you?

We are fans. We aren't the GM of the Bears who is paid millions to get these decisions right. He had a 67% chance of getting the QB right and ****ed up. 75% if you include Lamar Jackson. He didn't. He has annually ignored the OT spot. He never quite got the WR position right. TE is up in the air *finally* since Kmet looks promising (after Burton, Shaheen and Graham he was due). The guy got the defense right. He got the O totally wrong. He also messed up TWO coaching hires

What unreal expectations do we have? Because we expect a playoff win every 6 years or so? Maybe your expectations are so low that 1 playoff appearance that resulted in a loss and 15 points later is a success

Let's now pull up the "Fire Pace" thread where you thought talking about him being fired was nonsense. Would you enjoy that? I'd enjoy seeing your spin on that idiotic opinion. It seems like your way of dealing with yourself being wrong is calling out others for being wrong. The Pace hire didn't work out. He's had 6 seasons. Let's find someone ideally better. Knowing the Bears we'll be doing this again in 4 years, but I think it's fine to admit Pace isn't the guy

Edited December 8, 2020 by beardown3231