dll2000 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 Fans have their own ideas in offseason and draft, but often when actual choices and decisions are made their inclination is to defend them because it is their team and they are going to root for them. I mean what fun would it have been to take attitude that MT is a sure fire bum from day one? Even if one thought that, they couldn’t know it for certain. Those defenses shouldn’t be used as later evidence of ignorance. Unless I do it. Then its okay. In past I have detailed every choice and move of Pace and how they were rational and well thought out in moment from a perspective. Bottom line is you have don’t have enough success in 4-5 years you are gone for vast majority of teams. Sometimes you can win for a long time and at a high rate, but failing to win it all still sees you gone or you just get stale. I admire franchises that keep coaches and GMs for decades. Chicago has not been one of those post owner/coach. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBears019 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 8 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. The irony in all of it is funny to me. Seems you’re a popular guy this morning lol... I think this is a bit of a mischaracterization here. Most people here didn’t want Tru. If my memory serves me right the vast majority of people wanted Watson, some did want Tru, and then there was some outcast sect of people that wanted that Mahomes guy. But yes, ultimately we all wanted a QB. When Tru was the pick, even if he wasn’t our preferred choice, at that point we all realized that he was now the future of the Chicago Bears. The Bears best chance of winning anything of significance rested on Trus shoulders. So yes, of course we all supported him at that point; that’s what we’re supposed to do as fans. What fun would it be to root against him from the very beginning just because you, the Internet poster guy (not you personally, but in general on this board), wanted someone other than the guy the high level NFL executive chose? It’s clear that Pace chose the wrong QB at this point. Tru did have a brief, flash in the pan amount of success in 2018 that gave a lot of us hope. 2018 feels like 10 years ago now, both because of the bears and other obvious reasons. But not reality has settled in once again and we see that Pace screwed that pick up and we want accountability. Thats a luxury we are afforded as fans. We don’t have to be right on every pick, we don’t have to know each players assignments on every play, we don’t have to know fundamentals for every position, etc. Were not the ones getting paid seven figures to make these decisions - Pace is. We’re just Internet poster guys with jobs and lives outside of here. I see your point that he has done a phenomenal job with the defense and his resources to fix the offense were limited due to the success of the defense (Mack trade). But the offense has shown no improvement, in fact it’s gotten worse over the last three years. Had the offense shown any bit of consistent progression over the past three years, i might be inclined to agree with you and keep Pace around for another year or two. But it hasn’t, so I’m on the fire Pace (and everyone) bandwagon. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WindyCity Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. The irony in all of it is funny to me. Pace went all in... and he lost. Now it is time for him to leave the table. I am not sure why this is hard to understand. If we were all the GM we should be fired as well and we do not have the access or unlimited resources to form an opinion. Edited December 8, 2020 by WindyCity 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nads786 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 9 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: Everyone is hating on Pace because he went all-in on a QB that he believed in during his rookie contract to give us the best chance at winning a title (which is how a current team should operate) and everyone was all for it at the time, but because it didn't work out, now everyone is acting surprised and calling for pitchforks. The irony in all of it is funny to me. There is nothing ironic about this. If I make a huge investment decision at work and fail horribly I will be fired. This is totally normal. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBears019 Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 10 minutes ago, Nads786 said: There is nothing ironic about this. If I make a huge investment decision at work and fail horribly I will be fired. This is totally normal. Yeah I’ve tried looking at this from the perspective of my job to. Det. Cbears019 does a phenomenal job of solving all those rape cases, but man when it comes to those burglaries he’s always arresting and charging the wrong guy... I wouldn’t get 6 years of that lol. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 7 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said: @Sugashane There is so much I wanna say about this but I don't have time right now so I'll get back to it later. You seem to somehow think that I am ignoring Pace's negatives (which I'm NOT AT ALL) but at the same time you are seemingly ignoring the positives and are not weighing them evenly. And certainly not based on most GMs. The amount of unrealistic expectation will always be incredible to me. Soinds good. I appreciate any responses man. That's not how it is at all. I never have ignored his positive influences and have quoted that to you and others on here. I have credited him for the great defenses he has put forth and adding a lot of talent from FA and trades in particular. He found a kicker and needs to extend him, which isnt a small feat at all. He got an elite returner in Patterson to help what was a poor return game, etc. It isnt even though. Does getting a great kick returner or finding a gem like Hicks equal out to busting on Tru? No, not even close. End of story he has failed on offense so far, and after 6 years has little to show for his efforts on that side of the ball and in postseason play. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 40 minutes ago, CBears019 said: Yeah I’ve tried looking at this from the perspective of my job to. Det. Cbears019 does a phenomenal job of solving all those rape cases, but man when it comes to those burglaries he’s always arresting and charging the wrong guy... I wouldn’t get 6 years of that lol. I'd watch that sitcom, even when it got rebooted to 'Mall Cop CBears19' after a season or two. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 40 minutes ago, Sugashane said: End of story he has failed on offense so far, and after 6 years has little to show for his efforts on that side of the ball and in postseason play. I wouldn't even say he's failed on offense so much as he's just failed. We have to judge GMs at a team level. A GM doesn't work on just 1 unit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dafreak Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 4 hours ago, beardown3231 said: What is your point? We were excited that Mitch had great tools and great moments. He was taken #2 overall. We gave him the benefit of the doubt. He sucks now. Wow I was wrong that I thought Mitch would be good. Crucify me why don't you? We are fans. We aren't the GM of the Bears who is paid millions to get these decisions right. He had a 67% chance of getting the QB right and ****ed up. 75% if you include Lamar Jackson. He didn't. He has annually ignored the OT spot. He never quite got the WR position right. TE is up in the air *finally* since Kmet looks promising (after Burton, Shaheen and Graham he was due). The guy got the defense right. He got the O totally wrong. He also messed up TWO coaching hires What unreal expectations do we have? Because we expect a playoff win every 6 years or so? Maybe your expectations are so low that 1 playoff appearance that resulted in a loss and 15 points later is a success Let's now pull up the "Fire Pace" thread where you thought talking about him being fired was nonsense. Would you enjoy that? I'd enjoy seeing your spin on that idiotic opinion. It seems like your way of dealing with yourself being wrong is calling out others for being wrong. The Pace hire didn't work out. He's had 6 seasons. Let's find someone ideally better. Knowing the Bears we'll be doing this again in 4 years, but I think it's fine to admit Pace isn't the guy Amen, right on! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sugashane Posted December 8, 2020 Share Posted December 8, 2020 4 hours ago, abstract_thought said: I wouldn't even say he's failed on offense so much as he's just failed. We have to judge GMs at a team level. A GM doesn't work on just 1 unit. Agreed 100% man, JAF and I had a back and forth where I pointed out his offense the root cause for the failure to challenge for the postseason, which is why his tenure was a failure. Even in the one postseason appearance we had it was an embarrassing loss that was due to the offense (double-doink aside he score more points than our offense - embarrassing). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Actually I can. He made the choice to lose the capital and gain a DPOY, this is his third year with his HC paired with his 2nd overall pick at QB. These choices weren't forced on him, they were made BY him. But you were fine with the Mack trade, right? Pace's options were limited both, cap and draft capital wise, because of the Mack trade. This is what I mean about wanting your cake and eating it too, man. You can't say you liked the trade and then complain that he didn't have the resources to fix other positions. That's seems foolish it me. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Again, yes I can. He was rewarded for the 2018 season in his 4th year as Executive of the Year because of the success the team had that year. I also dont see how having 4 drafts/offseasons is "all at once" regardless of how many times you use that phrase. It's a disingenuous exaggeration. Again, he had to rebuild the worst defense in franchise history and then traded drafted capital for Mitch. Without using hindsight, what could he have done fix the OT position with what he had to work with in 2019 and 2020? Hell, I'll even try to help, because as I said, I'm not saying he had no options at all, only that they were very limited after the Mack trade with no capital and very limited cap. 2019, Pace was strapped so that only leaves the draft and he still had to replace Howard. My fix for this at the time was signing Kareem Hunt--who received a very generous 2 year deal because of the uncertainty surrounded by his off-field issues. This would not have forced him to take the best RB on his list with the only pick he had in the first 100 and he could've drafted a OT instead of Montgomery. But then who could he have drafted with the 3.73 pick that would've been better than Leno and Massie (who were coming off of good years)? Or hell, even guard. Here are your options that was left on the board in the 3rd round. Michael Deiter G Nate Davis G Connor McGovern G Trey Pipkins T Chuma Edoga T Bobby Evans T Yodny Cajuste T 2020, still feeling the effects of the Mack trade, and had to fix the TE position (a position that is VERY important in any offense, mind you) while also fixing a glaring need on the strength of the team. Again, I wanted pace to give Floyd a 1 year prove it deal instead of signing another pass rusher to a big deal. The saved money could've been used on the OL. But who though? I'm not sure. So what options were there? ---Some fans wanted Pace to sign Vitai for 50+M and we've seen how that's worked out for the Lions, for example. Instead, Pace signed Idefi at a very good price and he's worked out well. ---Conklin? RT hasn't even been the biggest problem on OL this year, LT has. ---32 year old Bulaga for 30m? Not only has he been injured all year but he's also not been very good. If Pace had signed Vitai or Bulaga fans would be harping on mismanagement of money. Lose-lose situation. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: So we pretend that Grasu wasn't a bad pick and are supposed to be surprised a guy who started 11 games in 4 years wasnt a longterm solution? I have no issue with patching holes, but not sure how Ducasse is supposed to show he finds adequate talent on the OL. My point was that it wasn't like he ignored them, like you were saying, only that he other major holes to fill in the first 3 years. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Ok, so by his 4th season he built a great defense and after 6 he still has a bottom offense still, and the defense seems to have given up due to carrying the team. So we give him 3 years to build up the offense while the defense falls apart because you "cant fix everything at once?" I'm not sure what this part of my post is referring too because of the way your post is constructed. Honestly it's getting pretty hard to follow since I have to keep referring back to my post and then try my best to line it up. And FYI, it only took him 3 years to turn the worst defense in history into a good one. Remember, the defense was good in 2017 before Mack, we just had ALOT of injuries along with a terrible offense. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: The 2018 OL was average. They were poor as in the run game and Mitch's scrambling propped up the run production. Pass blocking they were solid though, I'll happily concede that. We'll have to agree to disagree on the run game then. All in all, the line was one of the best in the league as a whole. Not top 5 or anything but top-11 for sure. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: The OTs had their best seasons and Pace thought theyd maintain or ascend, and was wrong. With your franchise QB being raw and needing developed though you need to support him on that side of the ball, Leno was coming off his best season and was set to hit the free agent market and so it made sense to resign him since he didn't have any draft capital or money to replace for less money. The Massie extension was an overpay. He had 2-3 years (whatever is what is) of mediocre play and then somehow blew up in 2018 and that should've been a red flag to Pace. I always wanted to keep Massie as a back-up (which I think he could be one of the best) but I didn't want him to be a starter. but again, Pace was strapped so..... On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: I'm not going to say they played poorly to start the season because you're right, they did well then. But against the Lions twice, Giants and Falcons once each - not exactly great defenses. When they played the Colts they were outplayed handily. Beating up on bad groups isn't something I am going to brag about. Not saying you are but context is key. That's fair. I will say the changes in QB can have a big effect on how the OL operates in general too as a unit though. The majority of them are much more familiar with Mitch behind center than they are with a statue like Foles. It's not a coincidence that the OL have played their best games with Mitch behind center. Chemistry, communication, and cohesiveness, etc....all of that matters....and Mitch is also better at manipulating the pocket than statue Foles is, which makes the OL's job easier. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: You mentioned Super Bowl so I thought that you were implying I had made that point somewhere. If not that is my misunderstanding. Yeah, all I said was that it's hard to build a SB team. It was nothing more than a statement is all. No big deal though. Misunderstandings happen. Especially when two people have alot to say. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: I never said he was terrible at drafting. I said he hasnt produced much with his first rounders and argued he is going after positions of less priority. Every GM is loaded with good and bad picks. His best players have been from FA and traded for, or like Fuller were already on the team when he got here. Idc how he finds talent, the product on the field is all I care about. No, you didn't say Pace was bad at drafting and that comment wasn't towards you (I should've explain that). That comment was more towards people who keep saying this. The majority of the rest of your post we've already discussed. Pace he has found talent. He is good at drafting talent and like you said he is good at finding talent in FA too. Not too many GM's are good at both drafting talent AND finding talent in FA. And to make this team a true SB contender next year (roster wise) we need; a QB, 2 OTs, and a WR (or resign Arob if he will, tho I doubt it) and in order to accomplish this you need a GM who is good at spotting talent in the draft AND FA and Pace has shown that he is better than most in both areas. Especially considering this abnormal season. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Yes... He made the Mack trade. Has any of his picks came anywhere near Mack's level of play? No. Not sure why this has to be harped on repeatedly, he is far better than any pick Pace has made, and Pace made the decision himself. Are you ok with the Mack trade though? This seems like a circular convo. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: White was mostly considered the 2nd best WR behind Cooper iirc, though his physical gifts had people drooling about his potential. It was what had my attention for sure. I thought his size and speed would allow him to really open things up for Jeffrey in the intermediate game. But White had freak accidents. That can lessen the blow but regardless Pace made the pick after dumping Marshall. I was excited for the pick too, doesnt mean White wasnt going to suck if he stated healthy, he was raw and it is always an unknown so I'm not going to pretend I k how what he was going to be. At the end of the day he seems to have forced his own hand by cutting a talented headcase for a guy who has zero TDs in his career. Cmon now Suga. Marshall was a locker room cancer and the trade landed us Amos and worked out well for us in the end. Marshall had 1 good season and then he was cut and his career was over. BTW, he went to Jets and was still a cancer by his own teammates admission. So WR was most definitely our biggest need going into the draft. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Is said Floyd was a bust as an EDGE. That was clearly the case or Pace wouldnt have needed to make the Mack trade. I noted that he was a good offball LB. But you dont trade up in the top 10 for an above average offball LB. That's not true. Pace traded for Mack because you need 2 good pass rushers in this league. Floyd had nothing to do with the trade. We needed another pass rusher opposite of Floyd. And let's not act like Pace gave up the world to move up in the draft either. Pace only gave up a 4th to move up to address a pressing need. The bottom line is that he is not a bust. The only mistake he made with Floyd was not keeping him. So Pace has drafted 2 players who became busts, 1 of which was purely bad luck. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: If you want to look across the league then look also at the fact that he had Mahomes and Watson available and the production between them too. Look at the points the offense puts up, the lack of offensive production in the run game, etc. If we're gonna play the hindsight game then every GM in the league is awful because they drafted X player instead of Y. We could redo the draft for every team in the league to make it better than it was. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: Looking across the league does little but verify that Pace has been average, having strong points and weak points. Should I be impressed with average? How long should he get to actually have worthwhile production before you say enough? Just curious. What does your top-15 GMs look like? Because I can go through and point out all of the negatives in every one of them. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: How long should he get to actually have worthwhile production before you say enough? I would give him another year but I would also understand it if he is fired because that's just how the business works. Now whether or not that comes back to haunt us remains to be seen. If he is fired though, then everyone should be fired, starting with the McCaskey selling the team....but that's not realistic either. More or less just my wish list. On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: You have defended Pace repeatedly but never stated what your own expectations or minimum allowances would be to believe he should be fired. What are they? Does he get 4 more years and a new coach and QB to hopefully get right? Does he have to win 8 games per season to keep in good standing with you? You have a lot of strong opinions on others views but dont really state what your own are, just that you disagree with us. What do you need to see from Pace and how quickly would you expect it? I've seen numerous posts where you clearly are pissed at our offensive production being trash. I'll get to this in a separate post because this is already too long and this is kind of a loaded question. 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JAF-N72EX Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 3 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said: On 12/8/2020 at 2:36 AM, Sugashane said: You have defended Pace repeatedly but never stated what your own expectations or minimum allowances would be to believe he should be fired. What are they? Does he get 4 more years and a new coach and QB to hopefully get right? Does he have to win 8 games per season to keep in good standing with you? You have a lot of strong opinions on others views but dont really state what your own are, just that you disagree with us. What do you need to see from Pace and how quickly would you expect it? I've seen numerous posts where you clearly are pissed at our offensive production being trash. Alright, let me be clear here. I've disagreed about Pace being terrible because reading this forum you would think he is one of the worst GMs in the league. I'm defending him for a few reasons. 1) Some of the complaints about him are just flat out wrong (i.e "bad at drafting", "bad with money". 2) The team was a joke for years and he went all-in to try and give them the best chance to win a title, just like a GM in the modern era should, and I personally appreciate it. Regardless if it didn't work-out because I would much rather a GM do that than to sit idle and take the outdated slow build process approach. 3) I think it would be best to start fresh in 2022 than in 2021. More on this later. I'll post this separately after I'm finished here. That said, I understand everyone's frustrations with the offense and I'm with all of you on this. Believe me. I'm tired of this **** too. HOWEVER, I am also a firm believer that defense/special teams win SB's (for the most part) even in this QB era and Pace has done a good job of building both of them. It's not just about the offense. Look at the Packers, they have a top offense almost every year with Rodgers but have failed to win a SB for years because of a bad defense/special teams. The same with the Saints offense with Brees, Falcons with Ryan, Chargers with Rivers, Raiders with Carr, etc. I believe the offense(team) can be fixed this offseason (especially this offseason with C19 where alot of players are going to be available) just as long as we hit on our draft. But we need to have a GM who is good at spotting talent in the draft to make that happen ---which we do. We actually have one of the better GMs who is good at drafting and I have zero faith in the McCaskey's to choose a GM better than Pace. Pace missed on ONE QB. Only one (for those who keep talking about missing on 2 QBs) which alot of GMs have. Foles was NOT a Pace's choice, it was Nagy's. And I don't count McGlennon either because I don't think he had any intentions on playing him. We have a good set of WRs (Put Mooney, Arob, and Miller in any other offense and you have a very good/balanced group), and a solid piece to build off of at TE. We need a QB, RB, #1 WR, and 2 OTs in the offseason. Sign a vet Q and we have Foles as a backup for another year. If Pace drafts a QB in a attempt to save his job and the next GM/HC doesn't like him, then they can either ship him off like Keim did with Rosen or they can develop him into a backup while they choose their own QB. And why people keep ignoring SPECIAL TEAMS, as if it isn't a factor, is beyond me. FIELD GOALS, EXTRA POINTS, and FIELD POSITION... MATTER PEOPLE. ALOT actually. More than you might think. (I'm not talking to you Suga, just in general because I'm tired of hearing about how he only fixed 50% of the team). This is where drafting/signing players to be gunners come in handy. (i.e Skelley, Patterson, Izzy, Bush) I did a entire write up back in 2015 or 2016 about field position (at the same time I also wrote about the differences in offenses since Goodell took over) where I showed the success/fail rate(TD/FG) of each offense based on each teams starting field position by each single yard starting from a team being backed up in their own 1 yard line, down to their own GL. And coaches look at this aspect too and base their decisions around it. That's why you always hear Nagy talking about "flipping the field". I wish I could find the saved draft of it. I've tried looking for it before for another discussion but I don't know what the hell I did with it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 I think it's best to wait until 2022 to start a fresh rebuild. This would give the new GM a fresh palette to work with. If Pace can't make the offense work next season then so be it. The next GM will have a good draft position along with a TON of draft capital and money to work with right away, straight out the gate rather than being thrown into a mess. The McCaskey's, Philips, and Pace built this machine so let all of them ride it until it dies....all of the way through. The McCaskey's are the biggest problem though and until they either go away (which won't happen) or stop being cheap on who they hire in the FO then I have no faith in anything changing. Mainly the HC position. I pointed this out when Nagy was hired and was immediately met with hell fire from alot of Bears fans here --https://forums.footballsfuture.com/topic/6172-bears-hiring-matt-nagy/ That's just where I'm at with it at this point. It's good to hear rumbling about Philips but I won't believe it until I see it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abstract_thought Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 If Pace had such an eye for talent, the Bears wouldn't be in their current situation. You're trying to distill all of Pace's mistakes into 1 decision which is absolutely not the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JAF-N72EX Posted December 10, 2020 Share Posted December 10, 2020 8 minutes ago, abstract_thought said: If Pace had such an eye for talent, the Bears wouldn't be in their current situation. So another "Pace is bad at drafting" fan I see? 4 minutes ago, abstract_thought said: You're trying to distill all of Pace's mistakes into 1 decision which is absolutely not the case. You clearly haven't been following the discussion and are taking part of what I said (not sure what) and trying to create something that isn't there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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