Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 46 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Even last year there were rumors that we could've acquired Yannick Ngakoue for the 19th pick and passed on the deal so we could draft Arnette. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but you take a pass rusher like Yannick over a player like Arnette 7 days of the week and twice on Sunday. If we would have traded a 1st for YN that would have given him a ton of power on contract day and we most likely would have to have paid close to 20 or he would have walked. It's not as easy as you make it sound, there are many factors involved. I never have liked the Arnette pick but lets say we could have landed Jefferson, would you rather have YN at 20 per year severely limiting who we can sign bc of our cap situation or Jefferson on a rookie contract for 5 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: If we would have traded a 1st for YN that would have given him a ton of power on contract day and we most likely would have to have paid close to 20 or he would have walked. It's not as easy as you make it sound, there are many factors involved. Good pass rushers are hard to find and you have to pay them when you do find them. We could've skipped out on paying guys like Mariota, Collins, and Nassib who had no impact for us this year and used that money to pay Yannick. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 53 minutes ago, NYRaider said: We had a chance to buy low on Leonard Williams and passed on it and wasted those picks on guys that made zero impact for us this year. With a guy like that it's worth giving up mid-round picks to acquire him, low risk/high reward. And I agree, I think one of the main factors that seperates good teams from bad teams is their ability to identify talent later in the draft. As you said if you can find guys that fit your system that can develop into starters early on you get incredible value. That was the main factor in Reggie McKenzie's down fall as our GM and why we had to blow the roster up. He missed on almost every pick rounds 2-7 with the exception of a few guys like Carr and Jackson. Because of that we lacked depth and starting caliber players across the roster on cheap deals and couldn't afford to pay Carr, Mack, and Cooper because we had holes everywhere else. It's easy to criticize a front office after an 11.5 sack season is in the books but remember 30 other teams passed on Williams. He was traded for a 3rd and 5th for a reason. HIs 3 prior seasons to last he had 2,5 and .5 sacks. For every LW that turns it around there are 100 Vernon Gholstons out there. You make it sound like it was a no brainer and I really liked Williams on draft day but prior to this season he has been considered an under performer. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: It's easy to criticize a front office after an 11.5 sack season is in the books but remember 30 other teams passed on Williams. He was traded for a 3rd and 5th for a reason. HIs 3 prior seasons to last he had 2,5 and .5 sacks. For every LW that turns it around there are 100 Vernon Gholstons out there. You make it sound like it was a no brainer and I really liked Williams on draft day but prior to this season he has been considered an under performer. Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but even dating back to when he was a draft prospect the Raiders have reportedly loved him. As I said giving up a 3rd/5th for a guy like Williams was a low risk/high reward situation and we didn't pull the trigger on it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 4 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Good pass rushers are hard to find and you have to pay them when you do find them. We could've skipped out on paying guys like Mariota, Collins, and Nassib who had no impact for us this year and used that money to pay Yannick. Once again it's easy to say after the season is over. I remember nearly everyone on here being pumped that we signed Collins prior to him actually playing games and doing nothing lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 Just now, Frankie2Gunz said: Once again it's easy to say after the season is over. I remember nearly everyone on here being pumped that we signed Collins prior to him actually playing games and doing nothing lol As I said hindsight is 20/20. But my point still remains, draft capital is vastly overrated especially for a team like us who has historically drafted pretty poorly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie2Gunz Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 2 minutes ago, NYRaider said: As I said hindsight is 20/20. But my point still remains, draft capital is vastly overrated especially for a team like us who has historically drafted pretty poorly. It's shameful that we have drafted so poorly over the last 20 years, we are without a doubt in the bottom 5 in the NFL over that span. That doesn't mean that we should just assume that we will always draft poorly and give picks away. Like I said for every LW that has a heck of a season and now looks like a great deal there are way more Albert Hainsworth disasters, he was only traded for a 5th but still ended up being worthless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 1 minute ago, Frankie2Gunz said: It's shameful that we have drafted so poorly over the last 20 years, we are without a doubt in the bottom 5 in the NFL over that span. That doesn't mean that we should just assume that we will always draft poorly and give picks away. Like I said for every LW that has a heck of a season and now looks like a great deal there are way more Albert Hainsworth disasters, he was only traded for a 5th but still ended up being worthless. Obviously it is different on a case by case basis. Hainsworth didn't work out but he was nearing the end of his career. Leonard Williams is just now entering his prime and was a free agent after the season so it was a low risk/high reward situation. If you give up that 3rd/5th and it didn't work out, oh well you just move on. But if it did work out you got a major steal and great value for him. We gave up a 3rd/5th for Bryant and it didn't work out and it had relatively no negative impact on our roster construction or flexibility. And Williams plays a much more premium position than Bryant. Again, obviously hindsight is 20/20 but to me giving up those picks and taking that risk would've been more than worth it especially after we had just done the same thing with Bryant who didn't workout and it didn't really hurt our long term plans. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 I'm not a cap expert but PFF projected that John Johnson III will probably get a 4 yr/$50M deal ($12.5M avg) and Leonard Williams will probably get a 4 yr/$72M deal ($18.0M avg) if they hit free agency. Is there anyway that we can make roster moves to clear up enough space to afford both guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted January 16, 2021 Share Posted January 16, 2021 16 hours ago, Frankie2Gunz said: It's easy to criticize a front office after an 11.5 sack season is in the books but remember 30 other teams passed on Williams. He was traded for a 3rd and 5th for a reason. HIs 3 prior seasons to last he had 2,5 and .5 sacks. For every LW that turns it around there are 100 Vernon Gholstons out there. You make it sound like it was a no brainer and I really liked Williams on draft day but prior to this season he has been considered an under performer. Glad someone is saying it. Prior to this season the book on Leo Williams was he "isn't the pass rusher expected he'd be". He was a solid DT, but just a guy with the Jets. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 3 hours ago, NYRaider said: I'm not a cap expert but PFF projected that John Johnson III will probably get a 4 yr/$50M deal ($12.5M avg) and Leonard Williams will probably get a 4 yr/$72M deal ($18.0M avg) if they hit free agency. Is there anyway that we can make roster moves to clear up enough space to afford both guys? Absolutely. If we move tyrell, joyner, possible trent, and one of richie/gabe, we can get both for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Humble_Beast Posted January 17, 2021 Author Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) I would only trade picks if it’s a difference maker on the trenches, or an elite no headcase player..... Williams, Buckner, man we could have added either one and we had the assets during that time frame to make it work.... I’m not spending much on offense this offense, just on Agholor or Arob.... all on defense, go hard to Improve the DL. We have a bottom 5 unit that gives our DBs no chance. Edited January 17, 2021 by Humble_Beast Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, big_palooka said: Glad someone is saying it. Prior to this season the book on Leo Williams was he "isn't the pass rusher expected he'd be". He was a solid DT, but just a guy with the Jets. And that's why he could've been had for a 3rd/5th but we'd rather make moves like that for skill position players like Martavis Bryant, Antonio Brown, Zay Jones, and Trevor Davis. How did those moves work out for us? We've had one of the least talented DL groups in the league for a decade even when we had Khalil Mack. And have probably had the least talented group in the league since we moved Mack. We were willing to move a ton of mid-round picks and spend mid round picks on WR's but refused to try and make a move for Williams despite having a major need at the position. In his second season he had 68 tackles, 7 sacks, 11 TFL, 19 QB hits, and 2 FF which led to a Pro Bowl appearance. In his fourth season he had 42 tackles, 5 sacks, 11 TFL, and 20 QB hits. He had some consistency issues but the talent has always been there for him, that's why he was so highly regarded coming out of college, he has tools you can't teach. And the Giants got rewarded for taking a chance on him as he put up 57 tackles, 11.5 sacks, 14 TFL, and 30 QB hits this season. We've seen it with a variety of guys too, they flash as pass rushers for a team and then after a change of scenery they blossom into consistent, top tier pass rushers. Za'Darius Smith and Shaq Barrett are two other examples. But hey at the end of the day at least we have Tanner Muse on our practice squad and Amik Robertson as our third string slot CB. Edited January 17, 2021 by NYRaider Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 On 1/16/2021 at 12:59 AM, NYRaider said: Obviously hindsight is 20/20 but even dating back to when he was a draft prospect the Raiders have reportedly loved him. As I said giving up a 3rd/5th for a guy like Williams was a low risk/high reward situation and we didn't pull the trigger on it. Your spot on ... at the price LW went for it was a very low risk high reward trade.... we should have tried to trade for him. Maybe there were other factors were unaware of but if there weren’t it’s upsetting we didn’t trade for him given the cost. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted January 17, 2021 Share Posted January 17, 2021 1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said: Your spot on ... at the price LW went for it was a very low risk high reward trade.... we should have tried to trade for him. Maybe there were other factors were unaware of but if there weren’t it’s upsetting we didn’t trade for him given the cost. We'd rather draft guys like Tanner Muse and Lynn Bowden Jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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