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Defense Discussion [2017]

CentralFC

By CentralFC
in Green Bay Packers

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40Year Pack Fan

40Year Pack Fan

Posted
Posted

Wonder if Packers would continue to play decent defense w/o Clay Matthews?.....I thought the linebacker crew played pretty good w/o him.....The secondary is a work in progress, which we knew going into last years draft....Ineffective double coverage of Antonio Brown lost the Steeler's game....The line still can't get enough pressure, which again is a work in progress.....

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KFP7

KFP7

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Posted
1 hour ago, JBURGE25 said:

Also coincides with the decline/departure of Charles Woodson and Tramon Williams.

Again, I still think the most important thing for this defense is two SOLID corners. Allows Capers to run that complicated secondary where it gives the safeties freedom

I think it requires 2 good corners and 2 good safeties.  The whole back-end has to be good (maybe can get away with one safety being average).

2010: Williams/Woodson    Collins/Peprah

2011: Williams/Woodson  Burnett/Peprah

2012: Williams/Shields   Burnett/Jennings (ew)

2013: Williams/Shields   Burnett/Jennings 

2014: Williams/Shields   Burnett/HaHa

2015: Shields/Randall?  Burnett/Haha

2016: Randall/Gunter (oof)  Burnett/Haha

 

You are spot on - while a drop-off is expected with a downgrade in the secondary it is a bit too steep of a drop-off.  These defenses still gave up too many yards/points as well. Some years there's not a whole lot that can be done though - 2016 those corners are painful with Randall having a bad/injured year. Shields would do wonders for this team.

 

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JBURGE

JBURGE

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27 minutes ago, KFP7 said:

I think it requires 2 good corners and 2 good safeties.  The whole back-end has to be good (maybe can get away with one safety being average).

2010: Williams/Woodson    Collins/Peprah

2011: Williams/Woodson  Burnett/Peprah

2012: Williams/Shields   Burnett/Jennings (ew)

2013: Williams/Shields   Burnett/Jennings 

2014: Williams/Shields   Burnett/HaHa

2015: Shields/Randall?  Burnett/Haha

2016: Randall/Gunter (oof)  Burnett/Haha

 

You are spot on - while a drop-off is expected with a downgrade in the secondary it is a bit too steep of a drop-off.  These defenses still gave up too many yards/points as well. Some years there's not a whole lot that can be done though - 2016 those corners are painful with Randall having a bad/injured year. Shields would do wonders for this team.

 

Peprah, MD Jennings and McMillian.... those were dark times. 

Not having good enough corners to play effective man, and not having a strong enough pass rush to play zone was a bad problem to have last year. 

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KFP7

KFP7

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Posted
12 minutes ago, LargeFarva said:

Packers were 4th in QB rating against (76.8) that year. That's the second best on that list (2010: 67.2). They're currently 26th (96.9).

Maybe Jennings wasn't so bad after all?

Yeah....the defense ranked 11th that year and were 4th in sacks.  

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JBURGE

JBURGE

Posted
Posted
35 minutes ago, KFP7 said:
50 minutes ago, LargeFarva said:

Packers were 4th in QB rating against (76.8) that year. That's the second best on that list (2010: 67.2). They're currently 26th (96.9).

Maybe Jennings wasn't so bad after all?

Yeah....the defense ranked 11th that year and were 4th in sacks.  

How many huge plays did we give up? I remember that being our achilles heel from 2001 on for a few years. Long passes were always completed

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LargeFarva

LargeFarva

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24 minutes ago, KFP7 said:

Yeah....the defense ranked 11th that year and were 4th in sacks.  

2016:
Sacks - 6th
QB rating - 26th

Good pass rush ≠ good secondary, although it certainly helps.

Jennings wasn't great, but he also wasn't that bad, and certainly not worthy of being the go-to for bad Packers defenders over the last decade. I just think it's kinda funny that he's the guy this forum picks on when there were guys like Gunter, McMillian, Walden, Brad Jones, Datone Jones, Neal, etc. that were legitimately terrible.

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LargeFarva

LargeFarva

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11 minutes ago, JBURGE25 said:

How many huge plays did we give up? I remember that being our achilles heel from 2001 on for a few years. Long passes were always completed

Explosive passing plays (>25 yd) allowed (per sportingcharts.com):

2009 - 26
2010 - 27
2011 - 37
2012 - 27
2013 - 39
2014 - 27
2015 - 29
2016 - 35

The worst years coincide with injuries (2011 - Collins, 2013 - Hayward, 2016 - Shields). No stats for this year but it'll probably be bad.

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Green19

Green19

Posted
Posted

I think the defense discussion is one of miss alignment... at every level.

I think we naturally want to be a 3-4 because it provides flexibility in not only scheming but in talent acquisition. More body types are available (the classic idea, what happens to players if they are too big for LBs or are too small for DEs).

But I think they are trying to be so versatile in talent they can acquire and in the schemes they run... that GB lacks an identity. A North Star guiding them. It’s why the body types and skill sets are sooo wildly different on defense. Which makes it hard when they start to gel and injuries occur because it only work with how clay plays olb or whom ever. I think there is room for versatility but GB needs to set a standard in scheme and how they want to play within that scheme and draft mostly around that specifically. That way the operation is the same, day to day, game to game.

Heck look at the dline over the years. They favored short big guys early but now they want tall long guys... yet our 2 best dline guys are still short big body types.

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TheOnlyThing

TheOnlyThing

Posted
Posted
46 minutes ago, LargeFarva said:

Jennings wasn't great, but he also wasn't that bad, and certainly not worthy of being the go-to for bad Packers defenders over the last decade. I just think it's kinda funny that he's the guy this forum picks on when there were guys like Gunter, McMillian, Walden, Brad Jones, Datone Jones, Neal, etc. that were legitimately terrible.

You'll get no argument from me about the other guys you mentioned not being any good, but in 2013 when he was thrust into the starting lineup (because McMillian was even worse) M.D. Jennings was bad. Like really, really bad.

"M.D. Jennings: According to STATS, Jennings tied for 227th place in their "Ballhawks." Despite 75% playing time, he broke up merely two passes and, like every other safety, had no interceptions. He has been just kind of out there for two years. Too often, Jennings broke down in the red zone. He gave up a team-high 4½ TD passes. He lacks height, weight and overall presence. At best, he's a third safety. It's entirely possible the Packers won't make him a qualifying offer as a restricted free agent. Grade: D-minus."

http://archive.jsonline.com/sports/packers/defense12-b99180643z1-239782291.html/

M.D. Jennings

Much like Burnett, Jennings certainly had his struggles this year. In fact, he had way more struggles than he had good plays for the Packers defense.

Jennings rarely made a positive impact in a game. He couldn't stop the run, and he couldn't slow down passing attacks. It's hard to see the Packers moving forward with Jennings as a future starting safety.

Season Grade: D-

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1905008-grading-every-green-bay-packers-starters-2013-regular-season

Many of us at APC, including myself, figured Jerron McMillian would beat out M.D. Jennings for the starting spot opposite Morgan Burnett. Jennings won the position battle, and was the starter by default the rest of the way as McMillian struggled mightily. Jennings lacks the size and awareness to be a starter at the NFL level, and I even question whether he should be a back-up on this team. Jennings gave up four touchdowns in the red zone, and was a complete liability in pass coverage.

https://www.acmepackingcompany.com/2014-packers-roster-evaluation/2014/2/4/5376654/2014-packers-offseason-review-grading-the-safeties

Jennings was so bad in 2013 that he never played in the NFL again.

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Norm

Norm

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Posted
14 minutes ago, packerrfan74 said:

No one touches Bad Jones level of terribleness...

We didn't even need Dom to give up 3rd and longs... Jones did it on his own with penalties. 

Yeah but didn't he deflect a pass with his head once.

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LargeFarva

LargeFarva

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Posted
35 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

You'll get no argument from me about the other guys you mentioned not being any good, but in 2013 when he was thrust into the starting lineup (because McMillian was even worse) M.D. Jennings was bad. Like really, really bad.

Was anybody on the 2013 defense any good? Maybe Daniels and Shields?

Jennings returned 100% of his turnovers for touchdowns. You can't beat that.

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