WizeGuy Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 20 minutes ago, VanS said: I'm going more on 2018 when Allen was out for a stretch of games in the middle of the season and the team didn't look like it belonged in the NFL. But when Allen did play they were upsetting teams like the Vikings. Obviously one half of football in the final game of a season doesn't say much. Especially when the game was out of hand by that point. I recommend reading this article. You've seemed to paint a picture that Allen was this elite player coming out of college, which simply isn't true. He needed a lot of work, and to his credit- he put in that work to become a franchise QB. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656535/how-bills-qb-josh-allen-went-mediocrity-mvp-contender Quotes from Jordan Palmer who knows Allen's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone outside of Buffalo's staff: 'Palmer is quick to deflect credit for Allen's dramatic improvement, saying the coaches on Buffalo's staff, like offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and quarterback coach Ken Dorsey, deserve most of the praise. ' "He drastically changed his base that he played with," Palmer says. "He used to bounce up and down on his toes, with a narrow base, which would cause him to over-stride when he'd go to throw. There is a cascading effect once you over-stride. Now he's learned to play with a much better base. When you play with all your cleats on the ground, you create more energy and you have more balance." Many people are eating crow today in regards to Allen. Myself included as I hated the pick on draft night, but became a fan during his rookie year. That doesn't mean your opinion is right, though. He was NOT an elite player coming out of college. He needed a ton work. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 25 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said: Matt Barkley vs the Jets in 2018 destroys this terrible theory. You're also contradicting yourself. You talk about how Allen didn’t have the WR or talent around him to catch up to his ability until this year. Well then how is Derek Anderson and Brian Daboll supposed to be even competent with Kelvin Benjamin and Andre Holmes as his WR? It works both ways. Except Daboll got HC interest last year too because people who actually watch the film saw what he was capable of doing. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 34 minutes ago, soflbillsfan said: Did you not see the bills put up 30 points on the Phins with Barkley playing 4 days ago or you just saying what you hear? The #2 defense in take aways all had starters in going in to the last drive. Last year they played the jets both in meaningless games, just trying to kill clock and get out of the game as the backups were facing starters. so to me I am not sure what you are talking about. Are you talking about 2018 when the bills were using UDFA WR, or olineman that were coming off of the practice squad or was it when he had to use guys that literally came out of retirement to play qb, maybe it was Nathan Peterman a 3rd string qb. Your argument is flawed on this as to say offense struggled with out allen is because they had no talent for him to utilize, we can argue that with any coach. I guess Bill Belichick is trash too since Tom Brady is no longer on the team based on your theory of struggling using backups. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefs_5627 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, WizeGuy said: I recommend reading this article. You've seemed to paint a picture that Allen was this elite player coming out of college, which simply isn't true. He needed a lot of work, and to his credit- he put in that work to become a franchise QB. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656535/how-bills-qb-josh-allen-went-mediocrity-mvp-contender Quotes from Jordan Palmer who knows Allen's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone outside of Buffalo's staff: 'Palmer is quick to deflect credit for Allen's dramatic improvement, saying the coaches on Buffalo's staff, like offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and quarterback coach Ken Dorsey, deserve most of the praise. ' "He drastically changed his base that he played with," Palmer says. "He used to bounce up and down on his toes, with a narrow base, which would cause him to over-stride when he'd go to throw. There is a cascading effect once you over-stride. Now he's learned to play with a much better base. When you play with all your cleats on the ground, you create more energy and you have more balance." Many people are eating crow today in regards to Allen. Myself included as I hated the pick on draft night, but became a fan during his rookie year. That doesn't mean your opinion is right, though. He was NOT an elite player coming out of college. He needed a ton work. This is where he moves the goalpost to "I trust my eyes, "I know what I saw", etc, etc" Edited January 7, 2021 by Chiefs_5627 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 18 minutes ago, Trentwannabe said: Thank you for showing and admitting to us all you don’t actually watch the games. You’ll be hard pressed to find a defense playing much better than Buffalo has over the last half of the season. As for numbers being down, injuries and opt outs certainly played a part. And numbers for defenses were down league wide to start the season. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 Ok... I think I caught up. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 5 minutes ago, WizeGuy said: I recommend reading this article. You've seemed to paint a picture that Allen was this elite player coming out of college, which simply isn't true. He needed a lot of work, and to his credit- he put in that work to become a franchise QB. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656535/how-bills-qb-josh-allen-went-mediocrity-mvp-contender Quotes from Jordan Palmer who knows Allen's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone outside of Buffalo's staff: 'Palmer is quick to deflect credit for Allen's dramatic improvement, saying the coaches on Buffalo's staff, like offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and quarterback coach Ken Dorsey, deserve most of the praise. ' "He drastically changed his base that he played with," Palmer says. "He used to bounce up and down on his toes, with a narrow base, which would cause him to over-stride when he'd go to throw. There is a cascading effect once you over-stride. Now he's learned to play with a much better base. When you play with all your cleats on the ground, you create more energy and you have more balance." Many people are eating crow today in regards to Allen. Myself included as I hated the pick on draft night, but became a fan during his rookie year. That doesn't mean your opinion is right, though. He was NOT an elite player coming out of college. He needed a ton work. Oh... wait! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bearerofnews Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 I wanna root for Vans but it's hard. He gives no intelligent breakdown or insight into his contararian takes. Just trust me guys, i was right this one time, 3 yrs after my initial take. Make me a believer my man. Give a breakdown of what you see, that leads you to some of these takes. I'm not one to pile on and always root for the underdog. Then i see your post and I'm rooting for something substantial with some foundation of legitimacy. Then i just get "just trust me guys, i know. But if im wrong in 10 years, ill admit it". It's 2021, let's strive for more. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chiefs_5627 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 minute ago, Bearerofnews said: I wanna root for Vans but it's hard. He gives no intelligent breakdown or insight into his contararian takes. Just trust me guys, i was right this one time, 3 yrs after my initial take. Make me a believer my man. Give a breakdown of what you see, that leads you to some of these takes. I'm not one to pile on and always root for the underdog. Then i see your post and I'm rooting for something substantial with some foundation of legitimacy. Then i just get "just trust me guys, i know. But if im wrong in 10 years, ill admit it". It's 2021, let's strive for more. And you're never gonna get it. Everything is broken down into circumstance and a disprovable eye test. He's tried venturing into having stats back him up but basically makes up stats, I remember specifically him saying last year the Bills had amazing TOP that's why their D was so good, he gets shown the stats proving otherwise and immediately returns to his eye test. It's a built in way to never feel 100 wrong. My personal fave: "Josh Allen didn't improve, his circumstance did" even though everyone and their blind uncle can see he's cleaned up many things in his game. FTR I like Allen and hope he continues on his trajectory but he wasn't some finished product when he came into the league. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ET80 Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 1 hour ago, Bearerofnews said: I wanna root for Vans but it's hard. He gives no intelligent breakdown or insight into his contararian takes. Just trust me guys, i was right this one time, 3 yrs after my initial take. Make me a believer my man. Give a breakdown of what you see, that leads you to some of these takes. I'm not one to pile on and always root for the underdog. Then i see your post and I'm rooting for something substantial with some foundation of legitimacy. Then i just get "just trust me guys, i know. But if im wrong in 10 years, ill admit it". It's 2021, let's strive for more. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Trentwannabe said: Matt Barkley vs the Jets in 2018 destroys this terrible theory. You're also contradicting yourself. You talk about how Allen didn’t have the WR or talent around him to catch up to his ability until this year. Well then how is Derek Anderson and Brian Daboll supposed to be even competent with Kelvin Benjamin and Andre Holmes as his WR? It works both ways. Except Daboll got HC interest last year too because people who actually watch the film saw what he was capable of doing. I've seen Kyle Shanahan make it work with a similar lack of talent. He is what I would consider a great offensive mind. And for the record I don't think there are many great offensive coordinators so its not a huge diss of Daboll if I am not that impressed with him. There are really only a handful of coaches who can have some success without elite talent to carry them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, soflbillsfan said: Kyle Shanahan having the 21st scoring offense this year and 2018 22nd is good? He has almost nothing to work with in terms of talent. What impresses me is when I watch San Francisco I see players running more wide open than on any other team. Schematically nobody does it better IMO. His teams also always find a way to run the ball with almost any RB. If you gave Shanhan a QB like Josh Allen and the weapons he now has, I believe they destroy every offensive record in the NFL. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, Trentwannabe said: Thank you for showing and admitting to us all you don’t actually watch the games. You’ll be hard pressed to find a defense playing much better than Buffalo has over the last half of the season. As for numbers being down, injuries and opt outs certainly played a part. And numbers for defenses were down league wide to start the season. It could simply be regression to the mean. I believe they are average in terms of talent so them strugglingly mightily to start the year was probably not an accurate indicator just as them playing much better now. To me middle of the road sounds right. We'll see moving forward what happens. I think we'll see many of the same faces next year on the defense. I don't expect a return to the elite numbers from 2019. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VanS Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 2 hours ago, WizeGuy said: I recommend reading this article. You've seemed to paint a picture that Allen was this elite player coming out of college, which simply isn't true. He needed a lot of work, and to his credit- he put in that work to become a franchise QB. https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/30656535/how-bills-qb-josh-allen-went-mediocrity-mvp-contender Quotes from Jordan Palmer who knows Allen's strengths and weaknesses better than anyone outside of Buffalo's staff: 'Palmer is quick to deflect credit for Allen's dramatic improvement, saying the coaches on Buffalo's staff, like offensive coordinator Brian Daboll and quarterback coach Ken Dorsey, deserve most of the praise. ' "He drastically changed his base that he played with," Palmer says. "He used to bounce up and down on his toes, with a narrow base, which would cause him to over-stride when he'd go to throw. There is a cascading effect once you over-stride. Now he's learned to play with a much better base. When you play with all your cleats on the ground, you create more energy and you have more balance." Many people are eating crow today in regards to Allen. Myself included as I hated the pick on draft night, but became a fan during his rookie year. That doesn't mean your opinion is right, though. He was NOT an elite player coming out of college. He needed a ton work. That's what I call the natural progression of a player. What Allen had was the foundations of an elite player. And he showed it from the moment he stepped foot in the NFL. However, it was in short bursts as a rookie. A little more consistent last year. And this year he has been totally on point outside of that short stretch in the season where he played thru a shoulder injury. I've never denied players get better. I just think the improvements are small and incremental until a player reaches his peak. The differences we see in the stats are moreso indicators of changes in the circumstances surrounding the player (i.e. roster improvements). So yes while Allen did improve, it was more about the pieces around him improving that led to this statistically impressive season. Give rookie Josh Allen this squad and he has similar numbers and success. I think its mainly thd folks that missed on the evaluation of Allen that are seeking to attribute his breakout year this season to some never before seen improvement in mechanics and skill. Which couldn't be further from the truth. Josh Allen was this good from the moment he stepped foot in the league. His improvements year to year are no different than any other player. He didn't make any monumental leaps. Ya'll just weren't seeing the greatness he was already displaying because you focused too much on the stats. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fureys49ers Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 6 minutes ago, VanS said: That's what I call the natural progression of a player. What Allen had was the foundations of an elite player. And he showed it from the moment he stepped foot in the NFL. However, it was in short bursts as a rookie. A little more consistent last year. And this year he has been totally on point outside of that short stretch in the season where he played thru a shoulder injury. I've never denied players get better. I just think the improvements are small and incremental until a player reaches his peak. The differences we see in the stats are moreso indicators of changes in the circumstances surrounding the player (i.e. roster improvements). So yes while Allen did improve, it was more about the pieces around him improving that led to this statistically impressive season. Give rookie Josh Allen this squad and he has similar numbers and success. I think its mainly thd folks that missed on the evaluation of Allen that are seeking to attribute his breakout year this season to some never before seen improvement in mechanics and skill. Which couldn't be further from the truth. Josh Allen was this good from the moment he stepped foot in the league. His improvements year to year are no different than any other player. He didn't make any monumental leaps. Ya'll just weren't seeing the greatness he was already displaying because you focused too much on the stats. You’re aware that Josh Allen himself in fact says otherwise right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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