Marty Hurney hired as WFT GM

[ripsean21]

4 hours ago, Thaiphoon said:

GM's don't groom their replacements. If so, this would be the first time that I can remember it happening. Can it happen your way? Maybe. But right now my money is on the 2 decades of this organization screwing things up.

One way to potentially keep Kyle a bit longer is to do the bolded. We agree there. But still, if I'm Kyle, I know the writing is on the wall, and I'm taking my talents elsewhere. Now, you are correct that the job is more than just being a draft ace. But to not interview him? Like I said, that's bad pool no matter where you work.

I see your point it’s understandable

[A TRAIN 89]

Front office staff and scouts are just as important as the GM, if not more. This FO has been woefully undermanned since Snyder took over.

Kyle Smith rose up the ranks in the college scouting arm of the FO. He doesn’t really have much pro personnel experience, not to mention the administrative/business part of the GM role.

It sounds like Rivera needed someone he’s comfortable with that has the experience to lead the front office. There are many other responsibilities outside of picking players and managing the cap. 
 

Remember, this is a coach centric approach so Rivera will still probably have last say.

I’m more interested in how the rest of the front office breaks down. Will they hire more executive-level staffers under Hurney? Will they really build out a functioning front office? Will there be a real analytics department, something Hurney (and Washington) has been scolded for not having?

[ripsean21]

4 hours ago, lavar703 said:

You don’t honestly believe Kyle is staying after this do you? 

I can only hope. Trust me I’m used to them screwing up. But to tell you the truth while I’m excited for the growth this roster showed I was pretty sure Ron wasn’t going to be our SB winning coach when we hired him. I think we will contend but I think our best chance is when this roster falls short in a year or two and RR and Hurney mess up something that Kyle Smith identified was a steal that pans out elsewhere and Dan cuts bait Promotes Kyle because he sees Ron just being comfortable and he allows Kyle to get us the guy to take that roster over the top. That’s actually what I felt was coming when we hired Ron and didn’t promote Kyle after his draft class.

[offbyone]

1 minute ago, A TRAIN 89 said:

Front office staff and scouts are just as important as the GM, if not more. This FO has been woefully undermanned since Snyder took over.

Kyle Smith rose up the ranks in the college scouting arm of the FO. He doesn’t really have much pro personnel experience, not to mention the administrative/business part of the GM role.

It sounds like Rivera needed someone he’s comfortable with that has the experience to lead the front office. There are many other responsibilities outside of picking players and managing the cap. 
 

Remember, this is a coach centric approach so Rivera will still probably have last say.

I’m more interested in how the rest of the front office breaks down. Will they hire more executive-level staffers under Hurney? Will they really build out a functioning front office? Will there be a real analytics department, something Hurney (and Washington) has been scolded for not having?

We already hired a business manager- Jason Wright.  Hurney won't be hiring coaching staff.  So I can only assume that player personnel will be his top focus.  

 

[e16bball]

I’m not really trying to bag on the guy, I don’t think he’s a really bad GM. This isn’t a Jim Zorn or Greg Manusky hire. 

He’s just not...good. Probably somewhere between average and below average. Which seems like an odd choice for a young, up-and-coming team, choosing to make a transition to an old guy who has pretty much shown what he can do. 

It’s not all bad. Nothing is more important than hitting on your 1st round picks, where you’ve just got to be landing good starters (and not busting) every year, and he’s got a great track record there. Leaving aside the 3 most recent 1st round selections (Derrick Brown, Brian Burns, and DJ Moore, all very promising players), it appears that 9 of his 11 first round picks have made at least one Pro Bowl. Only one was an outright bust (Jeff Otah), as Chris Gamble never made the Pro Bowl but was a very solid starter for years. Remarkably, 7 of those 11 first rounders also got at least one 1st team All-Pro nod. That’s really fantastic.

I probably gave him too much credit earlier by including the 2nd round in his successes. That was a big problem in his first stint, but he grabbed some very quality players in the 2nd over the last few seasons, including Taylor Moton, Curtis Samuel, and Jeremy Chinn. And I’ve already mentioned some of the good 3rd round picks, so maybe you’ve at least got a shot at hitting some starters on Day 2. 

Edited January 19, 2021 by e16bball

[TKellion]

I see situation normal here lol,But heck we all new this guy would get the job.I wanted the guy from Tennessee 😜

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, e16bball said:

That’s a pretty bold claim. Here are some guys on the team who weren’t drafted by Hurney.

 

LT Michael Oher (Baltimore)

LG Andrew Norwell (Carolina - not Hurney)

RG Trai Turner (Carolina - not Hurney)

RT Mike Remmers (Tampa Bay)

All-Pro FB Mike Tolbert (San Diego)

TE1 Greg Olsen (Chicago)

TE2 Ed Dickson (Carolina)

WR1 Ted Ginn (Miami)

WR2 Corey Brown (Carolina - not Hurney)

WR3 Jerricho Cotchery (New York Jets)

WR4 Devin Funchess (Carolina - not Hurney)

 

So basically, from the entire offense, he drafted Cam Newton, Ryan Kalil, and Jonathan Stewart. Good players, but they're still only 3 of the top 14 players on their offensive unit. 

Moving on to the defense then. 

 

DT Kawann Short (Carolina - not Hurney)

DT Star Lotulelei (Carolina - not Hurney)

DT Dwan Edwards (Baltimore)

DT Kyle Love (New England)

DE Kony Ealy (Carolina - not Hurney)

DE Jared Allen (Kansas City)

DE Mario Addison (Chicago)

LB Shaq Thompson (Carolina - not Hurney)

LB AJ Klein (Carolina - not Hurney)

S Kurt Coleman (Philly)

S Roman Harper (New Orleans)

CB2 Charles Tillman (Chicago)

CB3 Bene Benwikere (Carolina - not Hurney)

 

So on defense, basically the only key contributors Hurney drafted were Luke Kuechly, Thomas Davis, Josh Norman, and Charles Johnson. Again, great players, but it’s still only 4 out of their top 17 defensive players. 

All told, that’s 7 of the top 31 players on that team who were drafted by Hurney. Incidentally, for the record, he did also draft draft the punter (Brad Nortman) and the long-snapper (J.J. Jansen), but not the kicker (Graham Gano). So you can call it 9 out of 34 if you want. 

I read that while Hurney wasn’t the actual GM from 1999-2001 that he and someone else shared those duties. So, I would also credit him with drafting Steve Smith.

Guess who traded for Greg Olsen?

You guessed Hurney.

Franchise QB Cam Newton: Hurney

Jonathan Stewart were drafted by Hurney

Mike Tolbert was signed by Hurney in FA in 2012

All-Pro center Matt Khalil drafted by Hurney

I didn’t realize that Peppers wasn’t on the 2015 team, I guess he was in Green Bay by then.

I guess I overstated with the phrase “most,” still you add Olsen as a trade & Tolbert as free agent signing and that’s up to 11 of the 25 starters 3 years after Hurney was fired who were still on that team including the franchise QB, their starting RB, their pro bowl TE, their All-Pro C, their All-Pro CB, their All-Pro Bowl MLB, Pro Bowl OLB & a good starting LDE.

And the guys that had moved on or been signed away in FA by 2015 that Hurney had drafted some were still good or great players. Peppers in Green Bay, DeAngelo Williams in Pitt, Byron Bell was the starting RT in Tennessee, Steve Smith in Baltimore and Evan Mathis who the 2015 Panthers lost to in the Super Bowl while he was the LG with the Broncos.

[Thaiphoon]

3 hours ago, turtle28 said:

I guess we have a different level of analysis. 
 

Still, he had more good years than bad and 3 great years, to get that in the 5th round is amazing. I love Ioannidis but Norman was a better draft pick by Hurney than Ioannidis was by Gruden/McCloughan. 
 

To hit on a 5th round pick who was pro bowl level for 3 years and All-Pro one year is amazing.

You can downplay Norman all you won’t but I think he was an amazing draft pick by Hurney.

It tells me that he was good in the system they were running. Kinda like Mike Shanahan making average RBs look like Pro Bowlers. And when they go elsewhere, most of them looked...average.

[turtle28]

1 hour ago, e16bball said:

I’m not really trying to bag on the guy, I don’t think he’s a really bad GM. This isn’t a Jim Zorn or Greg Manusky hire. 

He’s just not...good. Probably somewhere between average and below average. Which seems like an odd choice for a young, up-and-coming team, choosing to make a transition to an old guy who has pretty much shown what he can do. 

It’s not all bad. Nothing is more important than hitting on your 1st round picks, where you’ve just got to be landing good starters (and not busting) every year, and he’s got a great track record there. Leaving aside the 3 most recent 1st round selections (Derrick Brown, Brian Burns, and DJ Moore, all very promising players), it appears that 9 of his 11 first round picks have made at least one Pro Bowl. Only one was an outright bust (Jeff Otah), as Chris Gamble never made the Pro Bowl but was a very solid starter for years. Remarkably, 7 of those 11 first rounders also got at least one 1st team All-Pro nod. That’s really fantastic.

I probably gave him too much credit earlier by including the 2nd round in his successes. That was a big problem in his first stint, but he grabbed some very quality players in the 2nd over the last few seasons, including Taylor Moton, Curtis Samuel, and Jeremy Chinn. And I’ve already mentioned some of the good 3rd round picks, so maybe you’ve at least got a shot at hitting some starters on Day 2. 

How is this bad? I wouldn’t characterize him as “good” or anything but it’s certainly not bad. If Kyle Smith does stay I think the combination of the two could be good.

[turtle28]

@Thaiphoon A GM that I can remember who groomed his replacement was Bobby Bethard who groomed Charley Casserly.

And while Hurney didn’t take over for Bethard in San Diego, he did work under Bethard for 8 years and that may have been the plan but Hurney went to Carolina instead. 

[turtle28]

8 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

It tells me that he was good in the system they were running. Kinda like Mike Shanahan making average RBs look like Pro Bowlers. And when they go elsewhere, most of them looked...average.

Well crap you can say that about a lot of players in the NFL. It’s funny bc you never move the goalposts but you certainly are in this case. Haha 😂 😉 

[Thaiphoon]

11 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

@Thaiphoon A GM that I can remember who groomed his replacement was Bobby Bethard who groomed Charley Casserly.

And while Hurney didn’t take over for Bethard in San Diego, he did work under Bethard for 8 years and that may have been the plan but Hurney went to Carolina instead. 

Yeah. You missed the context that I explained to @naptownskinsfan

Again... I'm not talking about grooming someone already in the building that you're already working with while you go towards retirement. Like Ozzie with DeCosta in Baltimore.

I'm talking about hiring a guy from OUTSIDE of your team to come in and groom their replacement so the team can then fire the guy and replace him with the guy he just groomed. 

"Yeah, we'd like you to come in and teach the kid the ropes for a few years and then we'll let you go."

Show me when that has happened. No one is gonna take a job when during the interview the employer says "as soon as you train the new guy, you're gone"

That's why I said GM's don't take jobs to groom their replacements. They want to stay employed for a long time.

 

[Thaiphoon]

11 minutes ago, turtle28 said:

Well crap you can say that about a lot of players in the NFL. It’s funny bc you never move the goalposts but you certainly are in this case. Haha 😂 😉 

Not moving them at all. You're pointing out that he was great in Carolina and agreed that he hasn't been great since then. I've pointed out that he has gotten progressively worse since leaving there. You then went back countered that he was an All-Pro, etc... etc... while in Carolina.

So what does that tell me when a guy is great in one place, but only average elsewhere? It reminds me of Shanahan's running game making RBs look better than they actually were. Which is reminiscent of Norman post-Carolina. I pointed that out. How is that moving the goalposts?

[turtle28]

2 hours ago, offbyone said:

You are really cheerleading this one.  You seem to be going with the trust in Ron point of view.  It is hard to discuss if that is where you are.

Sure with that many drafts he has some good players, but rarely after the second round.  If you compare Hurney's record to other GMs, I think you will find it is very unimpressive.  The best anyone could say is his track record is average.

If a month ago someone asked you to name 10 GMs you would be excited to take the job does he make that list?   Is he even in the consideration of the list?  No way.  

I’m not cheerleading. I wanted Kyle Smith to get the job, if you looked at that thread I was cheerleading him to get this job for the last 3 or so years - whatever - right along with Lavar.

Here’s what I’m doing, I’m just trying to point out that while the record was bad, Hurney did have some positives as E just said almost all of his 1st round picks except 2 I think were hits. People always take me pointing out good things that people have done rather than just being a complete jerk and crapping/harping on just the bad stuff as me loving a hire, signing, draft pick etc.

Most times if I don’t point out some of the good things someone like Hurney has done - rather than just hating everything - this forum won’t even talk about some of the good moves bc people are so brainwashed into thinking that every Washington Football move will be a failure bc most have been failure over the last 27 years. 

[turtle28]

5 minutes ago, Thaiphoon said:

Not moving them at all. You're pointing out that he was great in Carolina and agreed that he hasn't been great since then. I've pointed out that he has gotten progressively worse since leaving there. You then went back countered that he was an All-Pro, etc... etc... while in Carolina.

So what does that tell me when a guy is great in one place, but only average elsewhere? It reminds me of Shanahan's running game making RBs look better than they actually were. Which is reminiscent of Norman post-Carolina. I pointed that out. How is that moving the goalposts?

He was great in 2016 for Washington. Then as he started to age more in 2017, 18 & 19 his play dropped off.