drfrey13 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 10 hours ago, BayRaider said: I’ll have to disagree with you here. Watson is elite and the 4th best QB in the NFL, and those four are in their own tier. That is fair. The reason why I do not put Watson in that top tier is his ability to win regardless of talent. That does not mean he is not elite but rather he has not proven it. That is why I said maybe he becomes elite by getting away from the Texans. He is worth trading some picks for but at a certain level the cost becomes to great. I would take Watson all day long over Carr but when you start adding picks it's not as easy of a choice. Like @MrOaktown_56 said about over 2 1st is to much. We will all have different levels of picks that make it not worth. The elite issue is similar to Ferrel and the combine. Ferrel showed on the field but could not prove at the combine that his athleticism was enough to transfer his skills or how much his team helped him. Watson has shown his ability to produce stats but not wins. I would say that is more so the team around him but that is not 100% certain. I would be fine trading Carr and some picks but some of the trades I have seen proposed are ridiculous. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 41 minutes ago, OnlyGlove said: No doubt PG was a terrible coach. But for me the NFL network and other TV provider's have overhyped 1st round picks. Most of them don't make it or get close to the standard expected. Yet most pro bowl players come im the later rounds. I get early 1sts are very good but later ones are overhyped. There are a lot of top players taken in later rounds but this is also position dependent to. How many of the top QBs where taken outside of the 1st? 70% of starting QBs where taken in the 1st and other highly prized positions you will see similar outcomes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NCOUGHMAN Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, drfrey13 said: That is fair. The reason why I do not put Watson in that top tier is his ability to win regardless of talent. That does not mean he is not elite but rather he has not proven it. That is why I said maybe he becomes elite by getting away from the Texans. He is worth trading some picks for but at a certain level the cost becomes to great. I would take Watson all day long over Carr but when you start adding picks it's not as easy of a choice. Like @MrOaktown_56 said about over 2 1st is to much. We will all have different levels of picks that make it not worth. The elite issue is similar to Ferrel and the combine. Ferrel showed on the field but could not prove at the combine that his athleticism was enough to transfer his skills or how much his team helped him. Watson has shown his ability to produce stats but not wins. I would say that is more so the team around him but that is not 100% certain. I would be fine trading Carr and some picks but some of the trades I have seen proposed are ridiculous. Yea but we suck at picking firsts thats the only thing really making me ok with trading so many firsts. I Imagine Trading cle + Abram + Jacobs + hr3 For Watson and I’d do it those guys are easily replaceable imo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drfrey13 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Just now, NCOUGHMAN said: Yea but we suck at picking firsts thats the only thing really making me ok with trading so many firsts. I Imagine Trading cle + Abram + Jacobs + hr3 For Watson and I’d do it those guys are easily replaceable imo I understand. I stated in anther post that we have not received good value with our firsts for since Mack and Cooper. Some would argue Cooper was a bad pick and even though I was a huge Cooper supporter I wanted to trade down that year instead. Can I keep HR3 and throw in Arnette with that trade? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
true2form Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Wasn't expecting to see this today, but I should expect it by now. Watson is an upgrade over Carr, I think most would say so. However, for me it would come down to what is the compensation, how does it all work out in the end? I'd also be concerned with Watson's injury history. It would be so the Raiders to pull off a blockbuster deal, everyone get excited, and then he blows out another knee in preseason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimkelly02 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, NCOUGHMAN said: Yea but we suck at picking firsts thats the only thing really making me ok with trading so many firsts. I Imagine Trading cle + Abram + Jacobs + hr3 For Watson and I’d do it those guys are easily replaceable imo Yes we suck at drafting in round 1 but that doesn’t make the asset (our first round picks) less valuable. there is justification in trading a certain amount of picks for Watson because the difference between Carr and Watson is worth egg we’d get but the draft. But the “extra” that you overpay could equally have been traded for other players to help Watson. And we’re going to have to draft successfully with Watson to win. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, jimkelly02 said: Watson can’t win without a decent team around him. If you trade so much for him you can’t field a good enough team we are in the same boat as now. I’m for this deal but only at the right price. The Max we should Offer is Carr and 2 1sts. The only deal you make is one that is just good enough that Houston isn’t ridiculed for the deal. You simply let them save face. I’m hearing some people say we should offer Carr plus 2 1sts’s and 2 2nd’s? Are you kidding? We need to negotiate a win for once. It’s very simple: watson has a no trade clause and can pick a list of teams where he’ll go. This lowers demand because he’s only going to list >6 teams. Less demand means his price drops. carr’s trade value is 2 1sts right now. We can find a trade partner pretty easily I feel. Of the teams he picks how many can or will trade 4 1sts or more for Watson? What other teams can put together a package like that? Very few, maybe only us. Houston is in zero position of power! There franchise is in shambles and their star QB will never play there again. Do not bail them out and give them a massive draft haul. We don’t HAVE to make this deal. We’re more than happy to roll with Carr in ‘21. If Houston can get the price down low enough for us to bite then sure. That’s how you frame the conversation. dont be afraid to walk away from Any deal, ever. Houston has the problem not us. We are one of maybe 2-3 teams who can put enough together. you absolutely don’t get into a bidding war. It’s likely at least 1 of the 3 teams drops out of the race. Start low and let as many teams fall out of the race as possible.... if your the only one left then you force the compensation down at the last minute by threatening to back out. Boom. Watson is worth a lot, but the Texans have crap all over their hands right now. They can save face and stay respectable with DC and 2 firsts. It makes sense for both teams. While Watson clearly warrants a great deal of draft capital in order for a trade to occur, the fact that he essentially hates that organization and is demanding a trade, lowers the value required to obtain him. Good to see someone else on the same page as I am. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 It sounds like the report is based on a whole lot of nothing. National media guys are saying the Texans aren't discussing a Watson trade with any team at this point. The Raiders aren't shopping Carr, it's just teams showing interest. That's not related though. It's just an assumption that the Raiders could trade Carr if it helps them get Watson. The Raiders don't know if they can get Watson or what it would take at the moment. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 1 hour ago, drfrey13 said: That is fair. The reason why I do not put Watson in that top tier is his ability to win regardless of talent. That does not mean he is not elite but rather he has not proven it. That is why I said maybe he becomes elite by getting away from the Texans. He is worth trading some picks for but at a certain level the cost becomes to great. I would take Watson all day long over Carr but when you start adding picks it's not as easy of a choice. Like @MrOaktown_56 said about over 2 1st is to much. We will all have different levels of picks that make it not worth. The elite issue is similar to Ferrel and the combine. Ferrel showed on the field but could not prove at the combine that his athleticism was enough to transfer his skills or how much his team helped him. Watson has shown his ability to produce stats but not wins. I would say that is more so the team around him but that is not 100% certain. I would be fine trading Carr and some picks but some of the trades I have seen proposed are ridiculous. I always see the bolded and never agree with the statement. There is no QB in the world that can win regardless of talent. You can't shift any QB in the history of the world to the worst team in the NFL and get that team to the playoffs. Especially the SB. They may add to the team's wins, but consistently being able to win is another story altogether. A player like Mahomes will probably add 4-5 wins to a 2-3 win team like Jax or the Jets, but he isn't taking them on a deep playoff run. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 I don't understand the draft capital argument. In any draft class there are 3-5 sure things, blue chip type players that go in the top 10. Afterward the top 10 picks, the level of player, talent and skill is razor this in most cases when not talking about QBs. The Raiders should not be picking in the top 10 for the foreseeable future. So the picks that would be given up are a crap shoot anyway. And say you give up 2 or 3 ones, you still have the rest of your draft picks to acquire talent. You can pick, trade up, etc. to get the talent you need. The defense is young. At some level it has to develop and grow. Adding more young picks does what exactly? They can use FA to get the pieces they need. You add Watson and shore up the Dline, the Raiders would make the playoffs in 2021. What defensive current defensive player would you take over Watson in the draft? I can't even argue I'd take Donald over a franchise QB for the next decade, but that's just me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 7 minutes ago, Jerry said: I always see the bolded and never agree with the statement. There is no QB in the world that can win regardless of talent. You can't shift any QB in the history of the world to the worst team in the NFL and get that team to the playoffs. Especially the SB. They may add to the team's wins, but consistently being able to win is another story altogether. A player like Mahomes will probably add 4-5 wins to a 2-3 win team like Jax or the Jets, but he isn't taking them on a deep playoff run. Agree. Adding a top 5 QB to an 8-8 team though... where's that elevate them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitty 2.0 Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 Not to make things worse but the rumor is Texas is looking for two 1st round picks and two second round picks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 8 minutes ago, oakdb36 said: It sounds like the report is based on a whole lot of nothing. National media guys are saying the Texans aren't discussing a Watson trade with any team at this point. The Raiders aren't shopping Carr, it's just teams showing interest. That's not related though. It's just an assumption that the Raiders could trade Carr if it helps them get Watson. The Raiders don't know if they can get Watson or what it would take at the moment. Pretty much as expected. If your Houston though... what do you do? Watson has a problem with ownership reportedly. That seems hard to mend if he's already made up his mind and requested a trade. The incompetence with their owner and Jack Easterby isn't something easy to fix. He was close with Hopkins who's outspoken about his feelings of Houston. Andre Johnson sided with his wanting a trade and ripped the organization. They either trade him or he sits out right? That's where this goes? I don't see how they can talk him down. Seems it will get uglier as time wears on. As @jimkelly02 alluded. Houston isn't really holding the cards. They are going to be forced into a desperate situation if they are not careful. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 5 minutes ago, big_palooka said: Agree. Adding a top 5 QB to an 8-8 team though... where's that elevate them? Well with an 8-8 record that came from a top 10 scoring offense and the 29th ranked defense, I don't think it takes it much higher. Maybe 9-7 or 10-6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big_palooka Posted February 3, 2021 Share Posted February 3, 2021 3 minutes ago, Bitty 2.0 said: Not to make things worse but the rumor is Texas is looking for two 1st round picks and two second round picks. Sold.... Trade Carr for 2 1's and you have your precious draft capital back. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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