Covid-19 News/Discussion

[BakeSpeaks]

53 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

3.5ish. Depends on the specific endpoint; it's not enough for a comprehensive study, but not every study is meant to be comprehensive. 

I'm disagreeing with you. Using marijuana repeatedly as a sleep aid won't help you fall asleep faster, but will result in dependency and insomnia as a withdrawal symptom.

Every route of administration is noted (we never don't control for that). Some studies reference sativas, but the results are overwhelmingly consistent across strains because the issue is directly related to THC-CBD1 binding.

That makes sense. I didn't know that all of the strains are more or less the same. Do different terpenes/cannabinoids all have similar results?

 

if you have any other links that you think are relevant/interesting id love to take a look.

Edited February 2, 2022 by BakeSpeaks

[ramssuperbowl99]

21 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

That makes sense. I didn't know that all of the strains are more or less the same. Do different terpenes/cannabinoids all have similar results?

That's what I'd expect, provided the THC dose is the same.

I've heard rumors of some cannabinoid types binding to difference CBD receptors (CBD2, or some other version), which may stimulate CBD1 production (hence people using them for mood without the psychoactivity). But those are mixtures of dozens of different compounds, so studying them individually would be a PITA for no real gain since people want to use a blend anyway.

21 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

if you have any other links that you think are relevant/interesting id love to take a look.

Sure, here's a review on what's out there on the association between withdrawal and sleep: https://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents/Gates P, Albertella L, Copeland J. Cannabis withdrawal and sleep-A systematic.pdf

Your general note that the studies weren't designed particularly well is accurate, and this article goes into that.

Quote

In our review of 36 articles that included a measure of cannabis withdrawal and sleep, the most striking finding was a general lack of studies that used validated or objective measures. Moreover, there was a lack of studies that controlled for confounding variables such as other substance or medication use and potentially common preexisting sleep-affecting conditions such as chronic pain and depression. Among other less common limitations, these faults resulted in our reporting that the relevant articles were of low to moderate quality. Across these articles, a withdrawal syndrome caused by abstaining from cannabis use was consistently reported. In contrast, the specifics of sleeprelated symptoms of withdrawal remain somewhat unclear. Just over half of the participants across studies reported experiencing multiple symptoms of cannabis withdrawal when abstaining from cannabis use. For approximately one third of these individuals, these symptoms included a self-reported sleep-related problem, most commonly trouble falling asleep, waking up during the night, and/or experiencing strange dreams. Notably, during attempts at cannabis abstinence among participants of these studies on cannabis withdrawal, just over half reported relapsing to cannabis use and approximately 1 in 10 of these individuals report that this relapse was an attempt to alleviate problems sleeping.

Across studies that reported prevalence statistics, when abstaining from cannabis use, participants commonly reported experiencing “trouble sleeping” (41.5% of participants on average), “strange dreams” (34.4%), and “waking up early” (33.2%), whereas “sleeping more than usual” was less common (10.9%). In addition, participants commonly self-reported reductions in the total amount of time they spent asleep (this was observed in only half of the studies that objectively measured sleep time) and corresponding reductions to sleep efficiency and sleep quality. In contrast, the impact of these symptoms on the experience of sleep is uncertain. That is, reports of sleep satisfaction were largely unchanged, and findings from across studies using objective sleep measures (such as polysomnography) were mixed. However, there was a trend in line with the selfreported sleep “disturbance” in that periodic limb movements and waking after sleep onset may increase during withdrawal. In addition, sleep latency may increase and latency to REM sleep may decrease in withdrawal. As such, these indications of disturbed sleep should be of particular focus in future research.

 

Edited February 2, 2022 by ramssuperbowl99

[BakeSpeaks]

12 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

That's what I'd expect, provided the THC dose is the same.

I've heard rumors of some cannabinoid types binding to difference CBD receptors (CBD2, or some other version), which may stimulate CBD1 production (hence people using them for mood without the psychoactivity). But those are mixtures of dozens of different compounds, so studying them individually would be a PITA for no real gain since people want to use a blend anyway.

Sure, here's a review on what's out there on the association between withdrawal and sleep: https://www.med.upenn.edu/cbti/assets/user-content/documents/Gates P, Albertella L, Copeland J. Cannabis withdrawal and sleep-A systematic.pdf

Your general note that the studies weren't designed particularly well is accurate, and this article goes into that.

 

I read that down-regulation of receptors is typically reversed (speed varied by region).

Couldn't you say that MJ use DOES increase ability to sleep at first, and when it STOPs helping, you just need to take a break to let those reverse.

If thats true, then we can definitely agree that MJ does help sleep, but it doesn't always help forever.

[ramssuperbowl99]

10 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

I read that down-regulation of receptors is typically reversed (speed varied by region).

Couldn't you say that MJ use DOES increase ability to sleep at first, and when it STOPs helping, you just need to take a break to let those reverse.

How would someone "take a break" then? The symptoms that originally caused the insomnia are still there, and now are aggravated by the decreased number of receptors.

This is shown in research:

Quote

A total of 11 articles gave the proportion of participants involved in a study of cannabis withdrawal that reported relapse to cannabis use.16,18–20,24,41,46,48–50,54 The reported proportion relapsing to cannabis use ranged between 16% and 93%, with an average of 51.4%. Notably, the severity of withdrawal was identified to be a significant predictor of relapse in 2 studies,15,21 although no association was found in 2 further studies.18,48

A total of 3 studies reported the percentage of participants reporting relapse due to sleep-related problems of withdrawal.16,19,20 One study cited that “more than 50%” of the sample reported sleep-related problems were responsible for their relapse.19 A second study stated that of those who reported sleep problems, 11% used cannabis to compensate.20 Finally, more detail was provided by Levin and colleagues16 who reported that a median of 13.3% of a large sample of adult cannabis smokers relapsed to cannabis use after experiencing sleep problems including: “waking up during the night” (15.8% relapsed); “sleep less than usual” (15.6% relapsed); “trouble falling asleep” (14.6% relapsed); “waking up earlier than usual” (12.0% relapsed); “strange dreams” (10.2% relapsed); “sleep more than usual” (8.7% relapsed); “vivid dreams” (7.8% relapsed); and “other sleep problems” (33.3% relapsed)

 

13 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

If thats true, then we can definitely agree that MJ does help sleep, but it doesn't always help forever.

That would be a wildly positive, distorted take. The vast majority of Americans who use a sleep aid take them regularly; therefore, the risk of dependency/tolerance outweigh the short term melatonin distribution that THC causes. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

I'll offer an olive branch: I think it's a much better sleep aid than people who use alcohol to go to bed. (EDIT: Should note the use of the word "better" here does not mean I think it's a good sleep aid.)

Edited February 2, 2022 by ramssuperbowl99

[BakeSpeaks]

6 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I'll offer an olive branch: I think it's a much better sleep aid than people who use alcohol to go to bed. (EDIT: Should note the use of the word "better" here does not mean I think it's a good sleep aid.)

I struggled with sleep for most of my life, and have really only been able to sleep consistently with MJ. When I have found my tolerance increasing, I just take stop for a bit and (1-2 weeks) and continue.  

Thats what I meant by "take a break". 

Are there sleep aids that function differently? anything i've used has made me groggy and did not work for very long. 

[ramssuperbowl99]

22 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

Are there sleep aids that function differently? anything i've used has made me groggy and did not work for very long. 

Yes, there are a few that work differently. It may be worth a conversation with your doctor.

If it's improving your life and you're able to get off of it, good for you man. I just wouldn't suggest it generally.

[JohnChimpo]

46 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

I struggled with sleep for most of my life, and have really only been able to sleep consistently with MJ. When I have found my tolerance increasing, I just take stop for a bit and (1-2 weeks) and continue.  

Thats what I meant by "take a break". 

Are there sleep aids that function differently? anything i've used has made me groggy and did not work for very long. 

Strong username to post ratio

[BakeSpeaks]

54 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Yes, there are a few that work differently. It may be worth a conversation with your doctor.

If it's improving your life and you're able to get off of it, good for you man. I just wouldn't suggest it generally.

Yeah ive tried a bunch- most made me feel like trash the morning after.

 

Bur i think you’ve done enough to convince me to not suggest to people to smoke to sleep better.

 

thanks

[BakeSpeaks]

36 minutes ago, JohnChimpo said:

Strong username to post ratio

I forgot this place existed for almost a decade

[ramssuperbowl99]

26 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

Yeah ive tried a bunch- most made me feel like trash the morning after.

 

Bur i think you’ve done enough to convince me to not suggest to people to smoke to sleep better.

 

thanks

Appreciate it - let me know if you've got any other questions!

[jetsfan4life51]

Magnesium >> for sleep

[StatKing]

4 hours ago, BakeSpeaks said:

I struggled with sleep for most of my life, and have really only been able to sleep consistently with MJ. When I have found my tolerance increasing, I just take stop for a bit and (1-2 weeks) and continue.  

Thats what I meant by "take a break". 

Are there sleep aids that function differently? anything i've used has made me groggy and did not work for very long. 

I found rotating between edibles and smoking helps to keep your tolerance at a reasonable level.

[WizeGuy]

Update for my area:

Cases, hospitalizations, and ICU population are all on a steady decline. Case have been at less than 7% positive the past few days, which is awesome. The leaders at my hospital are confident the trend will continue. At least with hospitalizations and ICU population. Why shouldn't they be optimistic when we see how fast cases are declining?

Good to see. I'm optimistic for the spring and summer!

[minutemancl]

3 hours ago, WizeGuy said:

Update for my area:

Cases, hospitalizations, and ICU population are all on a steady decline. Case have been at less than 7% positive the past few days, which is awesome. The leaders at my hospital are confident the trend will continue. At least with hospitalizations and ICU population. Why shouldn't they be optimistic when we see how fast cases are declining?

Good to see. I'm optimistic for the spring and summer!

My wife works in a hospital and reported the same thing a few weeks ago, and the course has maintained.