Covid-19 News/Discussion

[Ray Reed]

20 hours ago, Ty21 said:

My uncle just died today after a month on a ventilator from covid 

My grandfather just passed yesterday from the same.

Really sorry for your loss.

[MWil23]

29 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Please provide further rationalization as to why you feel this is inappropriate.

...I've seen this before.

[MWil23]

22 minutes ago, SwAg said:

I like to believe what he meant by real life applications was that these studies didn’t control for these people lying awake endlessly misapplying philosophy to Benthamian scenarios in their head.

Now that seems more realistic.

While not completely aligning with Bentham, this is scarily accurate.

[MWil23]

@Ty21 @Ray Reed I'm so sorry to hear that guys! I wish there was something else that I could say.

[SwAg]

15 minutes ago, ET80 said:

...or binging It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia.

I was about to say I do that sober, but I contemplate implausible hypothetical scenarios with questionable logic sober too.

[ramssuperbowl99]

14 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

...I've seen this before.

Ha, I'll give credit, the link got looked at, and drug tolerance is complicated.

There's a new trend of people suggesting weed for a sleep aid, and it's not just that it won't work, it's that it will work temporarily, induce dependency, and then leave the person in a worse situation than they started.

Edited February 2, 2022 by ramssuperbowl99

[MWil23]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Ha, I'll give credit, the link got looked at, and drug tolerance is complicated.

There's a new trend of people suggesting weed for a sleep aid, and it's not just that it won't work, it's that it will work temporarily, induce dependency, and then leave the person in a worse situation than they started.

So basically like melatonin, right?

[ramssuperbowl99]

Just now, MWil23 said:

So basically like melatonin, right?

Exactly. In fact, marijuana induces melatonin release.

[MWil23]

Just now, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Exactly. You should have been a pharmacist. The two of us are professional equals

[BakeSpeaks]

2 hours ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Please provide further rationalization as to why you feel this is inappropriate. The Tmax of pot ingested orally varies, but without food may be as high as 2 hours. Even distribution half lives of marijuana range in the multiple hour mark, with terminal half lives lasting days.

Based on you capitalizing hours, I'm assuming you think that's too long. It's not. If anything, 10 hours on the short end.

Which allows for the assessment of reversibility of the decreased CBD1 receptor following repeated marijuana use that will lead to decreased ability to fall asleep. My guess is the 48 hour timepoint came from this:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4742341/

Pretty standard design tbh.

Thank you for the info.

 

We are talking about MJ helping with sleep. The effects of MJ typically do not last 10 hours, so i just don't see how that would be a relevant study.

I still don't see how testing people 2 days cold turkey shows how MJ does or doesn't impact sleep. 

I am also at work so I might just have missed something.

[ET80]

2 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

22 hours ago, Ty21 said:

My uncle just died today after a month on a ventilator from covid 

My grandfather just passed yesterday from the same.

Really sorry for your loss.

Sorry to hear for both of you guys...

[ramssuperbowl99]

31 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

We are talking about MJ helping with sleep. The effects of MJ typically do not last 10 hours, so i just don't see how that would be a relevant study.

The length of sampling for studies is determined by the specific endpoints, but that will typically include a return to baseline from the effects of the compound and giving the body enough time to clear the compound from systemic circulation. 

Pot has a half-life (the time it takes for half the drug to be eliminated) that varies a lot based on the specific subject, but it can range around a day.

So if you take a 10 mg edible at time 0, it takes about 2 hours to absorb completely and you'll end up with a maximum concentration of THC in your blood. It's going to vary by person, but it'll be in the range of a few ng/mL. For ease, let's say 5 ng/mL. And let's say the half-life is 24 hours exactly.

That means by 2 PM after taking it, you had a blood concentration of 5 ng/mL. At 2 PM the next day, it'd be about 2.5 ng/mL since that's enough time for half the drug to get cleared. At 2 PM the day after, it'd be another 50%, so 2.5 ng/mL to 1.25 ng/mL, etc. etc.

We nominally consider a drug cleared at 5 half-lives, but in a clinical trail as a boiler-plate suggestion we'll sample to 10 half-lives.

31 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

I still don't see how testing people 2 days cold turkey shows how MJ does or doesn't impact sleep. 

I'll explain what's happening when you smoke, and hopefully this will help things click.

 

When any drug is floating around in your body, it can interact with things in your body called receptors. A way to think of this is a "lock and key", where the receptors are a very specific shape and it takes a very specific shaped drug to fit.

THC binds to a receptor called CBD receptors, and there are a few that are similar, so we number the receptors CBD1 and CBD2, etc.. This produces the effects. So when you smoke, THC binds to the CBD1 receptor, and that causes your brain to feel high. 

However, the number of receptors you have can change over time. They are constantly degrading and your body has to spend energy to replace them. But whenever a receptor has a drug bound to it - meaning, it is going to signal the body to activate some pathway, it also sends a signal to slow down production of that receptor. More or less, its your body's way of saying "yeah dude, I got the message already and I'm fixing it, so I'm not listening to any more messages about how we have a problem". 

CBD1 is a receptor that binds to compounds that your body makes naturally because it mediates a lot of important things. It helps get you to sleep, it helps with your mood, etc. etc. But those interactions aren't as strong as the one between THC-CBD1, because when people smoke they dose themselves with way more THC compared to the CBD1 receptors. 

So, when you smoke, there's a crap ton of THC for each CBD1 receptor, and your body says, "yep, we get it" and slows down production of CBD1 receptors that help you fall asleep. If you keep smoking every night before bed, eventually the number of receptors is going to get smaller and smaller, so it will be harder to fall asleep and you'll need more and more THC to trigger them.

 

This is why we want to study people who are dependent. We can see exactly how few receptors relative to a normal person they have. But the good news is once the person stops smoking, the body stops getting the "stop making CBD1 receptors" message, and eventually the number of receptors return to normal, so the insomnia would go away. That's what the study in MJ-dependent subjects was trying to see.

Edited February 2, 2022 by ramssuperbowl99

[BakeSpeaks]

1 hour ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The length of sampling for studies is determined by the specific endpoints, but that will typically include a return to baseline from the effects of the compound and giving the body enough time to clear the compound from systemic circulation. 

Pot has a half-life (the time it takes for half the drug to be eliminated) that varies a lot based on the specific subject, but it can range around a day.

So if you take a 10 mg edible at time 0, it takes about 2 hours to absorb completely and you'll end up with a maximum concentration of THC in your blood. It's going to vary by person, but it'll be in the range of a few ng/mL. For ease, let's say 5 ng/mL. And let's say the half-life is 24 hours exactly.

That means by 2 PM after taking it, you had a blood concentration of 5 ng/mL. At 2 PM the next day, it'd be about 2.5 ng/mL since that's enough time for half the drug to get cleared. At 2 PM the day after, it'd be another 50%, so 2.5 ng/mL to 1.25 ng/mL, etc. etc.

We nominally consider a drug cleared at 5 half-lives, but in a clinical trail as a boiler-plate suggestion we'll sample to 10 half-lives.

1 hour ago, BakeSpeaks said:

 

Thanks for the response.

So if its a 24 hour half life starting at 5 mgs, and ten hours passes by there should be 3ish Mg left?Does that feel like enough to understand its impact?

 

It also seems like you are still agreeing with me, smoking will help you fall asleep faster. 

[BakeSpeaks]

Just now, BakeSpeaks said:

 

Thanks for the response.

So if its a 24 hour half life starting at 5 mgs, and ten hours passes by there should be 3ish Mg left?Does that feel like enough to understand its impact?

 

It also seems like you are still agreeing with me, smoking will help you fall asleep faster. 

I think if they aren't controlling for the strain and ingestion method, I don't know how accurate the results are anyway.

[ramssuperbowl99]

11 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

So if its a 24 hour half life starting at 5 mgs, and ten hours passes by there should be 3ish Mg left?Does that feel like enough to understand its impact?

3.5ish. Depends on the specific endpoint; it's not enough for a comprehensive study, but not every study is meant to be comprehensive. 

11 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

It also seems like you are still agreeing with me, smoking will help you fall asleep faster. 

I'm disagreeing with you. Using marijuana repeatedly as a sleep aid won't help you fall asleep faster, but will result in dependency and insomnia as a withdrawal symptom.

9 minutes ago, BakeSpeaks said:

I think if they aren't controlling for the strain and ingestion method, I don't know how accurate the results are anyway.

Every route of administration is noted (we never don't control for that). Some studies reference sativas, but the results are overwhelmingly consistent across strains because the issue is directly related to THC-CBD1 binding.