The Pass "Rush" After 7 Games

[AlexGreen#20]

7 hours ago, Mr. Fussnputz said:

Just a side note: when somebody says, I have a  "visceral response" or a "gut feeling" to say they aren't thinking isn't quite true. Gut feelings are actually thoughts processed in the non-verbal part of the brain called the limbic system. Thinking is occurring, just in a non-verbal way. We often times have trouble expressing the limbic thought process, because it is non-verbal. Often times we say, I have a hunch, or or I have a feeling in my gut. But that feeling or hunch is the result of a thought process, just a non-verbal one. 

"gut feeling" when talking about sports and particularly on forums, is almost always confirmation bias and on this forum seems like it's always accompanied by a lack of league wide perspective.  

[Dubz41]

On ‎12‎/‎2‎/‎2017 at 10:31 AM, Spartacus said:

I'm sorry. That was pretty harsh for the point you were trying to make. The reality is I just disagree with what you see. I think your over thinking the pass rush. 

A DC can only do so much. If you match Clay Mathews against a TE,RB, or 1v1 vs an average LT or RT he needs to win that 1v1. Something the last couple years he's really struggled with doing. 

I'm in the boat that this defense is filled with good starters but is missing that game changing player that all elite defenses rely on. Blue chip players have been severely lacking on this team.

No problem, I had to calm down a little.  My point with the pass rush is that we literally look like we're pushing a damn blocking sled.  I am led to believe that they are employing a technique they're being taught.  I watch other teams rush the passer and I see them swatting hands away, varying their different moves and spinning or taking a half shoulder as away to gain leverage.  When I watch our pass rush? I see the blocking sled.  I was able to attend today's game and we had seven sacks- WTF? But we couldn't stop the run or the screen pass.  Weird.

 

[MacReady]

This game is the type of confidence building game we needed for our Super Bowl run.  Browns game is the confidence confirming game we need.  If we hold them under 20 points, our defense gains confidence and we go on to win the Super Bowl. 

[Pugger]

39 minutes ago, HorizontoZenith said:

This game is the type of confidence building game we needed for our Super Bowl run.  Browns game is the confidence confirming game we need.  If we hold them under 20 points, our defense gains confidence and we go on to win the Super Bowl. 

I'm not sure if you are being facetious or not but it doesn't appear to be all that challenging to hold them to under 20 points...

[MacReady]

6 hours ago, Pugger said:

I'm not sure if you are being facetious or not but it doesn't appear to be all that challenging to hold them to under 20 points...

Not facetious at all.  Back-to-back 20 points or less games would do wonders for the defense's confidence.  Opponent doesn't matter.  We've held only 4 teams under 23 points all season.  Do not look up which teams they were if you don't want to be sad. 

I absolutely believe that confidence has a lot to do with the success of a defense.  It's why it sucked we had to play the Falcons a week after performing so well against the Seahawks. 

[TheOnlyThing]

Once again, Dom needed to go years ago.

Nonetheless, as this article makes clear, the FEEBLE 2017 pass rush may not principally be Dom's fault. 

https://scout.com/nfl/packers/Article/Worlds-Best-Green-Bay-Packers-Preview-Personnel-Errors-Created-Feeble-Pass-Rush-112846813

"Pressure and coverage, defensive coordinator Dom Capers will tell you, is the key to playing good pass defense. The Green Bay Packers haven’t had either end of the equation often enough this season, which is a major reason why their eight-year playoff streak came to a crashing halt this year. 

[When it comes to pass rush personnel] the Packers have made one big mistake after another.

First, it was letting Julius Peppers depart in free agency.

Second, it was virtually ignoring the pass rush in the draft. 

Third, it was putting too much stock in the development of last year’s third-round draft pick, Kyler Fackrell, who had a quiet rookie season with two sacks and three quarterback hits. Expecting Fackrell to take a big step forward in Year 2 played a role in the Packers ignoring outside linebacker in this year’s draft. Fackrell struggled through training camp and the preseason.

Fourth, it was the desperation swing-and-a-miss on Ahmad Brooks. With Fackrell’s struggles and Biegel’s surgery, the Packers signed Brooks after he was released by the 49ers.

Fifth, it was letting Reggie Gilbert languish on the practice squad for most of the season. Gilbert had a strong training camp but didn’t make the roster,"

[AlexGreen#20]

5 minutes ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Once again, Dom needed to go years ago.

Nonetheless, as this article makes clear, the FEEBLE 2017 pass rush may not principally be Dom's fault. 

https://scout.com/nfl/packers/Article/Worlds-Best-Green-Bay-Packers-Preview-Personnel-Errors-Created-Feeble-Pass-Rush-112846813

"Pressure and coverage, defensive coordinator Dom Capers will tell you, is the key to playing good pass defense. The Green Bay Packers haven’t had either end of the equation often enough this season, which is a major reason why their eight-year playoff streak came to a crashing halt this year. 

[When it comes to pass rush personnel] the Packers have made one big mistake after another.

First, it was letting Julius Peppers depart in free agency.

Second, it was virtually ignoring the pass rush in the draft. 

Third, it was putting too much stock in the development of last year’s third-round draft pick, Kyler Fackrell, who had a quiet rookie season with two sacks and three quarterback hits. Expecting Fackrell to take a big step forward in Year 2 played a role in the Packers ignoring outside linebacker in this year’s draft. Fackrell struggled through training camp and the preseason.

Fourth, it was the desperation swing-and-a-miss on Ahmad Brooks. With Fackrell’s struggles and Biegel’s surgery, the Packers signed Brooks after he was released by the 49ers.

Fifth, it was letting Reggie Gilbert languish on the practice squad for most of the season. Gilbert had a strong training camp but didn’t make the roster,"

Which one of you is Bill Huber?

[CWood21]

10 hours ago, TheOnlyThing said:

Second, it was virtually ignoring the pass rush in the draft. 

Third, it was putting too much stock in the development of last year’s third-round draft pick, Kyler Fackrell, who had a quiet rookie season with two sacks and three quarterback hits. Expecting Fackrell to take a big step forward in Year 2 played a role in the Packers ignoring outside linebacker in this year’s draft. Fackrell struggled through training camp and the preseason.

First off, you've still yet to answer my initial question and I suspect you will ignore it yet again.  What did Fackrell do in 2016 that indicated to you that there would be no development being made?  Is it unreasonable to believe that any former 3rd round pick would develop from Year 1 to Year 2?  If so, explain why.

As for not investing into the position, I'd argue that outside of TJ Watt which pass rusher that was available when the Packers picked did they miss on?  And even if you drafted TJ Watt with our original pick, you'd be here bitching about how the Packers ignored their CB position.  Something you'll conveniently ignore.  But let's go back to my exercise.  The only pass rushers drafted between the Packers 2nd round pick via trade down and their natural 2nd round selection were Tyus Bowser, Ryan Anderson, and Tanoh Kpassagnon.  Those three have a combined 3 sacks between the two of them.  Ironically, that's the same amount of sacks that Kyler Fackrell has.  Kyler Fackrell has as many sacks as Tyus Bowser alone has.  Let that sink in.  But let's also look between their natural 2nd and 3rd round picks.  You have Dawaune Smoot (0 sacks), Jordan Willis (1 sack), Daeshon Hall (0 sacks), Tim Williams (0 sacks), Tarrell Basham (2 sacks), and Derek Rivers (0 sacks, injured).  That's 3 sacks among 6 players.  There wasn't an EDGE available outside of TJ Watt that was going to change the complexion of our pass rush.  It's pretty clear you don't live in reality.

[Packer_ESP]

Bowser, Willis, Basham and Rivers were mocked a few times here, right? These are the OLBs that sound familiar from your list. Kinda surprising / disappointing that they have been so unremarkable. We really need to spend a premium pick there and get a stud, that kind of players is not going to get it done, at least not short term.

[CWood21]

5 minutes ago, Packer_ESP said:

Bowser, Willis, Basham and Rivers were mocked a few times here, right? These are the OLBs that sound familiar from your list. Kinda surprising / disappointing that they have been so unremarkable. We really need to spend a premium pick there and get a stud, that kind of players is not going to get it done, at least not short term.

Absolutely.  I just absolutely hate those who think that any rookie pass rusher was going to change the complexion of the pass rush for the Packers.  The only player you might be able to make that argument for is Carl Lawson, and given his injury history in college I don't blame the Packers for passing on him.  The Packers had the opportunity to draft him, and they drafted Vince Biegel instead both of whom came with significant injury concerns.  If that doesn't tell you enough about the Packers' mindset, I don't know what to tell you. The Packers really didn't have the ability to draft an impact pass rusher outside of TJ Watt, and if the Packers had opted to stay put and select TJ Watt I can guarantee you that TOT would be complaining that the Packers didn't invest enough into the CB position.

[vegas492]

Christ.  I forgot about Tim Williams, and I had a huge man crush on him last year!  

[CWood21]

7 minutes ago, vegas492 said:

Christ.  I forgot about Tim Williams, and I had a huge man crush on him last year!  

I'll be the first to admit that I really, really liked what Tyus Bowser offered as a prospect.  But I knew it'd be at least a year before he was going to be a productive pass rusher.  There wasn't a pass rusher who was going to change our pass rush overnight.

[vegas492]

Hindsight 20/20, I agree with you.  At the time, though, I was convinced that Williams in the second would be amazing.  His one trick was speed off the edge and that can be used a whole lot when you have a two score lead in the third and fourth quarters.  I overlooked his obvious issues just because of that fast get-off.

But, Williams, Bowser(as you mentioned) and Willis are certainly names to remember for the future...just to see how they are doing.

[CWood21]

23 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Hindsight 20/20, I agree with you.  At the time, though, I was convinced that Williams in the second would be amazing.  His one trick was speed off the edge and that can be used a whole lot when you have a two score lead in the third and fourth quarters.  I overlooked his obvious issues just because of that fast get-off.

But, Williams, Bowser(as you mentioned) and Willis are certainly names to remember for the future...just to see how they are doing.

That's kinda where I'm getting at .  We've been spoiled in recent years with rookie pass rushers who are able to make an impact as a rookie, but those are usually the exception not the rule.

[Norm]

23 hours ago, vegas492 said:

Hindsight 20/20, I agree with you.  At the time, though, I was convinced that Williams in the second would be amazing.  His one trick was speed off the edge and that can be used a whole lot when you have a two score lead in the third and fourth quarters.  I overlooked his obvious issues just because of that fast get-off.

But, Williams, Bowser(as you mentioned) and Willis are certainly names to remember for the future...just to see how they are doing.

Hindsight is 50/50