pwny Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Just now, Matts4313 said: Im not arguing it. Ive already conceded there are better ways to state it. Multiple times. If you're not arguing it, why are you still "defending those who did"? Literally this entire thing is people saying "if you are an ally, please don't use these words" and you and others saying "well they're still allies because the words can mean this other thing". Just don't use the words. Nobody is being called a bigot over using them, we're just asking that if you're an ally, you stop using words that are regressive, cause harm, passively dismissive, give cover to actual bigots, and don't actively give the context of the much required empathy and equity. That's it. You don't need to defend your honor or your allyship or that of another group of posters, you just need to be willing to grow as a person and admit when you make a mistake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said: I’ve said this though. I find that’s cool offensives I’m sure there’s at least one gay person somewhere that feels the same. What do we do about that? Why are we pretending like there’s a 100% consensus among the gay community on what words to use? If there is, please point me to it so I can use them. As I mentioned a few times though, that seems far fetched, people are different and have different preferences. "I don't care" gives rhetoric an actual bigot can hide behind whereas "I'm cool with that" does not. There isn't going to be a phrase that all members of the community is okay with and that's why on an individual level most people may not be hurt if you use the incorrect phrasing when it's a friend, someone you have a relationship with. The phrasing becomes more harmful on a macro level. I still don't think "I don't care" is the right phrasing to use on an individual level either, but the harm comes when you're using it in the context of something like this thread because it gives that shield to bigots and is regressive rhetoric in nature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, TENINCH said: My gay brother would laugh at us for discussing this for 38 pages. 😄 As would most of the gay people I have personal relationships with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: Why are we pretending like there’s a 100% consensus among the gay community on what words to use? Why are you dismissing the thousands and thousands of LGBT voices, and the tons of psychology and sociology research that says that we should move away from the phrase? Just because it isn't a complete 100% consensus doesn't mean that there isn't a vocal consensus on the reasons we should move away from the usage. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 (edited) 18 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: probably the multiple replies with multiple paragraphs trying to justify the phrase because of the intent if you recognize and agree that the impact is harmful regardless of the intent, why do you keep replying with "long-winded" comments and anecdotes trying to show it's okay to use the language? I dont think at face value the phrase is incorrect at all. I think that the impact due to misinterpretation and misuse could be used negatively. Much like the word ignorant, retarded, *****, etc. There are literal meanings to those words that are not negative inherently. Then there is societal interpretations that have made those words negative based on context. Ignorant means lacking knowledge. Retarded means stunted or slowed. ***** refers to a female or preggo pupper. Societal interpretations are ever fluid. Black => African American => Black. The accepted lexicon keeps changing, but the meaning of the words does not. I am simply stating that "I do not care" is a technically correct phrase that people used in a correct method, though for societal impact the phraseology should be changed. Edited June 23, 2021 by Matts4313 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar12 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 The last 10+ pages basically. 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said: As would most of the gay people I have personal relationships with. as a member of the LGBTQIA+ community, I take offense to it and I know many others who would too because it's passive marginalization 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malfatron Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 6 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said: I’ve said this though. I find that’s cool offensives I’m sure there’s at least one gay person somewhere that feels the same. What do we do about that? Why are we pretending like there’s a 100% consensus among the gay community on what words to use? If there is, please point me to it so I can use them. As I mentioned a few times though, that seems far fetched, people are different and have different preferences. Heres a good resource. Im sure there are many more you can find I agree with you that "I'm cool with it" might not be the perfect response https://lgbtrc.usc.edu/resources/comingout/moretips/ Be patient. Allow them to tell you at their own pace. Let them determine what is needed. Commit yourself as an ally. Let them know you are accepting. Don’t push. A person who is coming out may have a hard time talking about it. Don’t force them to disclose anything. Keep their confidence and respect their privacy. Acknowledge the risk they took by coming out to you. Compliment their courage. Don’t minimize the importance of what they did by saying, “It doesn’t matter to me.” Instead say, “Thank you for trusting me.” Or say, “It doesn’t change how I feel about you,” or admit that it might change things in positive way. Don’t over‐react If you’re comfortable with it, offer a hug or some show of support. Ask, “Is there anything I can do for you?” Don’t ask: Are you hot for me? What made you do this? Who did this to you? Is it just a phase? Aren’t you worried about AIDS? Were you molested? Does this mean you want to be a man (said to a woman)? Does this mean you want to be a woman (said to a man)? 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 2 minutes ago, Matts4313 said: I dont think at face value the phrase is incorrect at all. I think that the impact due to misinterpretation and misuse could be used negatively. Much like the word ignorant, retarded, *****, etc. There are literal meanings to those words that are not negative inherently. Then there is societal interpretations that have made those words negative based on context. Ignorant means lacking knowledge. Retarded means stunted or slowed. ***** refers to a preggo pupper. Societal interpretations are ever fluid. Black => African American => Black. The accepted lexicon keeps changing, but the meaning of the words does not. I am simply stating that "I do not care" is a technically correct phrase that people used in a correct method, though for societal impact the phraseology should be changed. I think you really need to take a step back and ask yourself why you're so passionate about arguing that this phrasing is okay especially when you've admitted that it's regressive. I think at this point, instead of continuing to go in circles, it'd be more productive if you spent some time self-reflecting and doing your own research and growth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GSUeagles14 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, pwny said: Why are you dismissing the thousands and thousands of LGBT voices, and the tons of psychology and sociology research that says that we should move away from the phrase? Just because it isn't a complete 100% consensus doesn't mean that there isn't a vocal consensus on the reasons we should move away from the usage. Why would I dismiss the people I have Personal relationships with? There’s millions of gay people, should I only listen to the ones that yell the loudest? As I said, if I slip up in person and use the wrong supportive word to someone, im more than happy to adjust to whatever their preference is. Let get serious, we when both say 100% consensus, we’re being disingenuous. There’s no where close to that, not even close to half of that. And why, because we’re talking about individuals who all have different personalities and thoughts. You wanna bet there’s some that would even be offended that people are arguing on the best verbiage to show acceptance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TENINCH Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 4 minutes ago, Malfatron said: Commit yourself as an ally. Let them know you are accepting. I am accepting of you as a Packer fan. It's very hard but I'm pushing my hatred to the side. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, Adrenaline_Flux said: passionate about arguing that this phrasing is okay especially when you've admitted that it's regressive. Im not arguing. I am sorry if it comes off that way. I am literally agreeing with you and giving my opinion as to why some people default to that language. My stance is simply is "the phrase its self is not inherently bad, but due to societal interpretations, its not the best way to express acceptance". Im having a conversation on language. Its not specifically about orientation, though in this thread, it is applicable. Im not sure what or how I would self reflect on the definition of words, especially as I am stating that they have power that is ever changing in different social circles and at different time periods. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matts4313 Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, TENINCH said: I am accepting of you as a Packer fan. It's very hard but I'm pushing my hatred to the side. Yeah but what about the fact that @Malfatron like math and looks like someone straight out of an 80's grunge band? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrenaline_Flux Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 Just now, Matts4313 said: Im not arguing. I am sorry if it comes off that way. I am literally agreeing with you and giving my opinion as to why some people default to that language. My stance is simply is "the phrase its self is not inherently bad, but due to societal interpretations, its not the best way to express acceptance". Im having a conversation on language. Its not specifically about orientation, though in this thread, it is applicable. Im not sure what or how I would self reflect on the definition of words, especially as I am stating that they have power that is ever changing in different social circles and at different time periods. self-reflection on why you feel a compulsion to argue that a phrase is "not inherently bad" when we seem to agree that it is regressive and passive marginalization Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pwny Posted June 23, 2021 Share Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, GSUeagles14 said: Why would I dismiss the people I have Personal relationships with? There’s millions of gay people, should I only listen to the ones that yell the loudest? As I said, if I slip up in person and use the wrong supportive word to someone, im more than happy to adjust to whatever their preference is. Let get serious, we when both say 100% consensus, we’re being disingenuous. There’s no where close to that, not even close to half of that. And why, because we’re talking about individuals who all have different personalities and thoughts. You wanna bet there’s some that would even be offended that people are arguing on the best verbiage to show acceptance? Or: hear me out. Instead of saying things that could offend someone and then changing it later, we could just not use the passively dismissive language and avoid the whole thing altogether. I'n gonna rehighlight malf's post so it doesn't get missed This is literally all we're asking. It doesn't need to be this whole stupid argument. Just follow what the recommendations for allyship are and stop trying to tell everyone that because the people you know allow you to use a phrase that's widely recommended to not be used that it is okay to use everywhere. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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