Raiders DE Carl Nassib announces he's gay

[pwny]

1 minute ago, Matts4313 said:

Ive literally conceded this point. @scar988 made a really solid point that "Thats cool/good for him/etc" is better than "I dont care" when discussing someones identity (sex/race/religion/etc). The phrase "I dont care" on face value isnt an incorrect term. When I meet someone I dont ask about their race/religion/politics/orientation; because I want to know who they are as a person and if they have common interest in life and a good heart. To me, personally, I "care" more about who you are as a person than who you vote for or take home at night. 

And we’re literally saying that if it isn’t what you mean, use different words. Nobody is calling you a bigot for saying “I don’t care”. They’re saying you should use different words. A simple “you know, you’re right. I don’t want to do something regressive, I’ll change what I say going forward” is all this conversation ever needed to be. Nobody cares about your pedantic definition of the phrase “I don’t care” and how you can use it when someone asks you what you want for dinner. They care that people learn from the things they do that are perceived as wrong.

 

If you don’t mean it to be harmful, then just say something different and stop with the “well actually.”

[GSUeagles14]

2 minutes ago, pwny said:

Yup. If you’re going to argue that you are an ally but that your allyship has to be on your terms, you’re doing it wrong. It isn’t hard to just not say “I don’t care” and to instead say something else that is reaffirming and doesn’t give cover to bigots. And if you’re not going to listen to LGBT people who say “don’t say that, it’s regressive and harmful,” maybe you need to really rethink how much you truly care about the struggles they face. 

If I have a few gay friends and a few gay family members. I can tell you for 100% certainty that they take no offense to “I don’t care”. I’m sure there’s people that might, and and I would use whatever language they’d prefer. 
 

you know what doesn’t help, accusing people blindly of not caring. There’s no one right answer. Someone suggested saying “im cool with that”, as I said I find that more offense and I’m sure we would find one person that would agree. Does that mean we never use “im cool with that” even if some others find it most supportive?

[scar988]

3 minutes ago, pwny said:

And we’re literally saying that if it isn’t what you mean, use different words. Nobody is calling you a bigot for saying “I don’t care”. They’re saying you should use different words. A simple “you know, you’re right. I don’t want to do something regressive, I’ll change what I say going forward” is all this conversation ever needed to be. Nobody cares about your pedantic definition of the phrase “I don’t care” and how you can use it when someone asks you what you want for dinner. They care that people learn from the things they do that are perceived as wrong.

 

If you don’t mean it to be harmful, then just say something different and stop with the “well actually.”

@Matts4313@GSUeagles14Pretty much, we're just saying, instead of digging in, just be like, "That's cool" in the future instead of the reductive "I don't care." We get that y'all don't mean it that way in this thread. We're just trying to open your eyes to how it's being perceived by others. Because some people who say, "I don't care" really mean "I do care, keep the idea of being gay out of my face."

[scar988]

2 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

If I have a few gay friends and a few gay family members. I can tell you for 100% certainty that they take no offense to “I don’t care”. I’m sure there’s people that might, and and I would use whatever language they’d prefer. 
 

you know what doesn’t help, accusing people blindly of not caring. There’s no one right answer. Someone suggested saying “im cool with that”, as I said I find that more offense and I’m sure we would find one person that would agree. Does that mean we never use “im cool with that” even if some others find it most supportive?

Why would you find, "I'm cool with that" offensive? It's literally a statement of showing acceptance.

[pwny]

Just now, GSUeagles14 said:

If I have a few gay friends and a few gay family members. I can tell you for 100% certainty that they take no offense to “I don’t care”. I’m sure there’s people that might, and and I would use whatever language they’d prefer. 
 

you know what doesn’t help, accusing people blindly of not caring. There’s no one right answer. Someone suggested saying “im cool with that”, as I said I find that more offense and I’m sure we would find one person that would agree. Does that mean we never use “im cool with that” even if some others find it most supportive?

There’s literally thousands upon thousands of pieces of literature about this. 
 

Nobody is blindly accusing anyone of not caring. You’re literally saying you don’t care, and we’re saying “you should care about people’s struggles, and if you do, regardless of your intent, you shouldn’t use passively dismissive language that’s regressive and harmful.”

[BullsandBroncos]

He's a very good rotatonal DE. No doubt about it. When he inevitably gets cut even 2 or 3 years down the road, I can imagine some will try to flip the narrative and say it was a problem in locker room when it clearly isn't or won't be.

[Malfatron]

15 minutes ago, GSUeagles14 said:

If I were to think about it, If I were gay I’d be more offended by “I’m cool with that”.      Seems more like I’m giving permission for you to be gay honestly.

Thats fair.

"Thanks for letting me know. I support you no matter what" is better

We are all learning here, and Im not going to pretend that im the authority on this topic here. Im trying to be better too

[JonStark]

1 minute ago, pwny said:

There’s literally thousands upon thousands of pieces of literature about this. 
 

Nobody is blindly accusing anyone of not caring. You’re literally saying you don’t care, and we’re saying “you should care about people’s struggles, and if you do, regardless of your intent, you shouldn’t use passively dismissive language that’s regressive and harmful.”

And we're saying we do care about people's struggles, yet for some reason that refuses to get acknowledged. 

[pwny]

8 minutes ago, JonStark said:

And we're saying we do care about people's struggles, yet for some reason that refuses to get acknowledged. 

Here, I’ll bold and underline it for you so you see it this time. 
 

if you do, regardless of your intent, you shouldn’t use passively dismissive language that’s regressive and harmful.

[Matts4313]

1 minute ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

There's a difference between telling a friend "I don't care you're gay, because I love and support you regardless" and going into a thread about a stranger coming out as gay in a profession that has a history of toxic masculinity and saying "I don't care"

There's also a fallacy in "my one gay friend said it's okay"

 

2 minutes ago, Adrenaline_Flux said:

What you're missing is that "I don't care" IS an incorrect phrase to use because it's passive marginalization. Someone's sexual identity is literally their identity. You don't need to ask someone what their sexual identity is, but it is a part of who they are.

You are literally arguing both sides of what I am saying right now, lol. In post 1 you admit to the idea that you can "not care that an individual is gay because you love and support them" (what I have been saying about individuals) while in the second post you are stating the stigma against that same phrase. 

Its like a whirlwind of political correctness here. And its really dumb because it seems like we are all in agreement.

I will give a real life example of how this has played out. A couple years ago I was car pooling my son and his friends from a party. His friends kept busting his chops because there were a lot of girls that kept flirting with him, but he didnt make a move. After dropping them off - I asked him what the deal was. "were they cute" "did you like any of them" etc. After prodding for a minute I said "Are you not attracted to chicks? You know you can tell me, I wouldnt give a damn if you are gay, I love you and am always in your corner". He finally admitted he was just super shy and has been pseudo-snap chat dating one of them, but it was a secret. Teens, everything is stupid and drama. That said - I used a similar phrase to "I dont care" when discussing sexuality and in no possible way did I marginalize anyone. 

 

But - long winded example aside - I do understand completely that saying "I am good with you no matter what" is better phraseology than "I dont give a damn"... although the intent of each message is the same the perception of the message can be misconstrued.  

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

2 minutes ago, Malfatron said:

Thats fair.

"Thanks for letting me know. I support you no matter what" is better

We are all learning here, and Im not going to pretend that im the authority on this topic here. Im trying to be better too

And that’s the idea, to do better.  Not just dig our heels in and insist we’ve done enough.

[Adrenaline_Flux]

1 minute ago, JonStark said:

And we're saying we do care about people's struggles, yet for some reason that refuses to get acknowledged. 

intent vs impact

it's been recognized over and over that it's not your intent, but you need to understand the impact it has is different from your intent

[Matts4313]

13 minutes ago, pwny said:

And we’re literally saying that if it isn’t what you mean, use different words. Nobody is calling you a bigot for saying “I don’t care”. They’re saying you should use different words. A simple “you know, you’re right. I don’t want to do something regressive, I’ll change what I say going forward” is all this conversation ever needed to be. Nobody cares about your pedantic definition of the phrase “I don’t care” and how you can use it when someone asks you what you want for dinner. They care that people learn from the things they do that are perceived as wrong.

 

If you don’t mean it to be harmful, then just say something different and stop with the “well actually.”

I dont think I ever said "I dont care", just FYI. I was just defending those who did because I could see their intent. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Matts4313

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, Adrenaline_Flux said:

intent vs impact

it's been recognized over and over that it's not your intent, but you need to understand the impact it has is different from your intent

It’s also been explained over and over.

[MrDrew]

It's great to live in a place where people can change the things said in front of Grandma, so she doesn't hear any cussing, but changing phrasing to something that better conveys what they actually mean, and is less hurtful to a large group of people, is a hill to die on.