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1 minute ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I'm talking about the culture itself and how it was built. Everything runs through Belichick. Even the offense. Belichick doesn't just run defense and leaves everything to McDaniels. It's a collective effort. It's been shown many times on different documentaries and all access.

For example: McDaniels is nowhere to be found.

 

Belichick talking about how a safety will see an offence and what to do to beat it is not the same as designing or calling an offensive scheme...will he have input? Of course he will like all head coaches however he won't micro manage McDaniels...

 

Yes the culture question will always be the biggest question when it comes to any coach coming out of New England and if they can replicate that...however I would rather take a risk and try and create that than bring in someone from a lesser environment...can't hire scared if we want to become a top class franchise.

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9 minutes ago, Madmike90 said:

Belichick talking about how a safety will see an offence and what to do to beat it is not the same as designing or calling an offensive scheme...will he have input? Of course he will like all head coaches however he won't micro manage McDaniels...

Yes the culture question will always be the biggest question when it comes to any coach coming out of New England and if they can replicate that...however I would rather take a risk and try and create that than bring in someone from a lesser environment...can't hire scared if we want to become a top class franchise.

 

See that's the thing right there though. How everything is done in NE cannot be duplicated. It's super rare. You have the greatest HC of all time who came in and built a cultural foundation and stood by it based on his philosophies while also hiring a staff who have helped him protect those beliefs and also just happened to stumble into the greatest QB of all time. All of this happened at once, and they all stayed together for so long that it almost became muscle memory. Everyone knew their roles and they played it.

But this is why I think alot of those coaches who leave for HC jobs don't do so well because they try too hard to replicate what they experienced in NE and you just can't do it. Those are unrealistic expectations.

I get what your saying about taking a risk. You're not wrong. But if I'm gonna take a risk on anyone then I would rather it be with someone who atleast has HC experience with a good track record IMO. I would probably be more inclined to take Harbaugh before McDaniels.

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50 minutes ago, JAF-N72EX said:

See that's the thing right there though. How everything is done in NE cannot be duplicated. It's super rare. You have the greatest HC of all time who came in and built a cultural foundation and stood by it based on his philosophies while also hiring a staff who have helped him protect those beliefs and also just happened to stumble into the greatest QB of all time. All of this happened at once, and they all stayed together for so long that it almost became muscle memory. Everyone knew their roles and they played it.

But this is why I think alot of those coaches who leave for HC jobs don't do so well because they try too hard to replicate what they experienced in NE and you just can't do it. Those are unrealistic expectations.

I get what your saying about taking a risk. You're not wrong. But if I'm gonna take a risk on anyone then I would rather it be with someone who atleast has HC experience with a good track record IMO. I would probably be more inclined to take Harbaugh before McDaniels.

I think this is the big point with the argument for McDaniels. After DEN he found out he isn't Bill and can't run the program like Bill does. Going from DEN and STL had to be a humbling experience because even when NE didn't have the best offensive talent (think the early dynasty times) they always had plenty of talent. STL was atrocious, no coach or staff could have made that work that year. Maybe he is conceited enough to not realize it though, I don't have any prof either way. Just hoping he has at least a normal amount of self-reflection available to him. lol

To me this is an issue that a lot of college coaches have when they come to the pros. You go from owning a program (at varying levels) and now have to try to convince grown men to follow you and do what you say. Its completely different from telling a 22 year old and a 29 year old who has made millions due to his play. When i went to college I realized I knew nothing about football, couldn't draw up a cover 3 defense if you asked me to. I thought my coach was a freaking genius at the time. lol

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2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

I mean, go back and watch Stanford. It was a more pro-style offense than we run with Nagy, what we fan with Trestman, or either SF or BAL did.

Nope. Sorry, it wasn't. Not at all. Not even close. 

2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

BAL is a college offense and it is getting 24ppg and that is with Lamar going down. Last year it was at 29ppg. They had 33 ppg the year before that.

Nope. Again, not at all. Not even close. 

2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

And it was again irrelevant to the situation. He didn't leave the NFL because of the meeting with the rules committee. That's beyond absurd.  lol

What was the reasoning, then?  You can claim one spurious thing, I can claim something else, far more rooted in fact?

2 hours ago, Sugashane said:

You're glossing over literally everything between Harbaugh and the front office. You're glossing over their demand to draft guys like Lamichael James and others against Harbaugh's wishes. They were bitter at each other even to the point of Jim showing up to the Levi Stadium ribbon cutting in gameday attire (which was seen as a disrespect).

Okay...so you're willing to overlook this situation, and lobby for Jim Harbaugh as Bears coach? Isn't this a ridiculous, and childish, situation? 

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44 minutes ago, Heinz D. said:

What was the reasoning, then?  You can claim one spurious thing, I can claim something else, far more rooted in fact?

Harbaugh himself has stated it was not his decision to leave. Why did the 49ers drop him? Because he clashed with GM Trent Baalke, who has since lost that job, moved to Jacksonville, and is now failing as a personnel guy there.

How did the 49ers do after Harbaugh left? First, they hired Jim Tomsula, who became a running joke halfway through the season and went 5-11. Then, they hired Chip Kelly, who went 2-14. Then the entire regime was replaced.

The point I'm driving at is that Harbaugh never failed as an NFL head coach. In his worst season, he took an injury-ravaged team to an 8-8 record. He may not be an offensive genius like other candidates. But he's been a highly successful NFL head coach. Is he cooky and dumb sometimes? Sure. But he's built winning teams that play exactly how fans want the Bears to play. And if he wins, I could live with the antics.

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Seriously? That was all the counterpoints you had? lol. You have backed nothing up you've stated again, but using the word spurious - which you used referencing my comment - means false or fake. So you're actually calling me a liar. Here, since we both have made claims then the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. 

I'll back up mine, then we will see if you can back up yours. 😁

 

1 hour ago, Heinz D. said:

Nope. Sorry, it wasn't. Not at all. Not even close. 

Yes. Sorry, it is and was. You proved nothing - again.

 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/560661-stanfords-jim-harbaugh-and-offensive-landscape-of-college-football

^ Goes over his offense in Stanford.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2015/1/23/7852435/michigan-football-jim-harbaugh-offense-2015

^ Mentions his pro-style trends

 

https://www.footballstudyhall.com/2016/11/25/13747436/harbaugh-v-meyer-round-ii-michigan-ohio-state-rivalry-weekend

^ More showing how much more pro-style he is compared to Urban, and STILL IS a pro style offense at Michigan

 

https://walterfootball.com/scoutingreport2012aluck.php

^ Even says Andrew Luck mastered the pro-style offense, wasn't Harbaugh in there? And the guy Harbaugh trained (Shaw) was who took over for him? Yes, yes it was...


Please show more than "no, no its not" as your backing. If you don't then I know you can't and we can be done with this back and forth.

 

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Nope. Again, not at all. Not even close. 

Brilliant (lack of) counterpoints. Except I'm right.

 

https://www.baltimoreravens.com/news/greg-roman-is-rolling-college-style-ideas-into-ravens-offense

^Yes it is

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stat-analysis/2020/2019-offensive-personnel-analysis

^ Says so too. "Baltimore was basically running a college offense, albeit one Greg Roman had used with success in San Francisco before" Further supports my point...

 

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What was the reasoning, then?  You can claim one spurious thing, I can claim something else, far more rooted in fact?

Nothing I have said was spurious. Not one.

I've said it already. You had it in the same comment you just quoted me on then deleted it to avoid it because you can't argue it. Wasn't it what you referenced of mine that you deemed spurious?  Here it is again:

3 hours ago, Sugashane said:

You're glossing over literally everything between Harbaugh and the front office. You're glossing over their demand to draft guys like Lamichael James and others against Harbaugh's wishes. They were bitter at each other even to the point of Jim showing up to the Levi Stadium ribbon cutting in gameday attire (which was seen as a disrespect).

The actual relevant facts are there were struggles because Jim was annoyed with stupid moves by FO and them undercutting him - in his opinion. They were mad he went back at them and refused to let him have more control over the roster. York and Baalke wanted Jim gone because they thought they were the ones who made the team go to 3 NFC Championships, Jim said he'd be fine with leaving and would enjoy watching them fail essentially, and they split. He then got a monster deal to coach at his alma mater. Well now they have split and Harbaugh has helped resurrect Michigan while SF has had one winning season without Jim. Baalke has been fired and shown his incompetence in JAX already, and SF is looking like anywhere from mediocre to crap overall, again. All facts.

If you have any actual evidence to your claim then feel free to post it.

It was well known and VERY well documented that he and the FO had a major rift going. But here's more on it.

https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/niners-still-haunted-by-jim-harbaugh-mistake/13084/

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2364520-jim-harbaugh-says-leaving-49ers-wasnt-mutual-decision-in-interview

https://www.businessinsider.com/why-49ers-got-rid-of-jim-harbaugh-2014-12

https://www.ninersnation.com/2015/2/13/8036667/jim-harbaugh-fired-jed-york-trent-baalke-michigan-interview

https://www.si.com/nfl/2014/12/29/jim-harbaugh-jed-york-san-francisco-49ers-coaching-search

https://ninerswire.usatoday.com/2016/10/10/this-is-all-your-fault-trent-baalke/

 

So am I still a liar? I have plenty of backing to my claims, where is yours? Here's something to remember: 'Correlation does not imply causation.' The fact he spoke with the committee had nothing to do with his choice, no more than a poor call in a game or frustration with Kaep as a passer. He left because he was forced out. Not because of a small ruling like what you claimed.

 

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Okay...so you're willing to overlook this situation, and lobby for Jim Harbaugh as Bears coach? Isn't this a ridiculous, and childish, situation? 

Yes, I am. No one wants to be disrespected and clearly Baalke had a power trip and seemed to pretend it wasn't Scott McCloughan who built the bulk of that talented roster. It wasn't Baalke who built it, and it wasn't Baalke who led them to a 44-19 record or winning 5 playoff games. But it was Baalke - and York for being too stupid to see obvious truths - who sent the franchise into ruin. 

https://www.49erswebzone.com/commentary/1639-trent-baalke-wrote-his-ownticket-out-town/

^ Seriously, look here! lol

 

As for Harbaugh, dude literally won almost 70% of his games over 4 seasons and did so with a borderline incompetent GM. The last time the Bears had that kind of winning record was under Ditka with one of the top teams/rosters in NFL history. And like Harbaugh, Ditka is/was a loudmouth childish jackass too. But he won for a good long time. That is about all that matters in the NFL. Harbaugh won a lot of games and I've made fun of his tantrums and such on the sidelines, but there is literally nothing you have given that backs you up. Not one shred of evidence. To me THAT is childish.  But I have backed up my claims. Now you can continue to say "No, not even close" or you can actually back up your claims in some way (you won't). If not that will be more than telling enough.

Denialism isn't enough to win a debate or support an argument.

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3 hours ago, Heinz D. said:

Harbaugh had a special meeting with folks from the rules committee, about the QB being vulnerable on RPO plays. They told him that the QB couldn't always be protected (although in subsequent years that's become closer to happening)...and after that, Harbaugh went back to the NCAA.

This is not true. It had nothing to do with running RPOs. That's ridiculous man. IIRC (and don't quote me because I could be getting this confused and I'm not invested enough to dig dirt this late) but I'm pretty sure it was because the players felt like Harbaugh was over working them in practice and they went to the union about it, and they in turn went to the league.

That's the only correlation I could see that maybe you might be confusing?

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7 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Harbaugh himself has stated it was not his decision to leave. Why did the 49ers drop him? Because he clashed with GM Trent Baalke, who has since lost that job, moved to Jacksonville, and is now failing as a personnel guy there.

How did the 49ers do after Harbaugh left? First, they hired Jim Tomsula, who became a running joke halfway through the season and went 5-11. Then, they hired Chip Kelly, who went 2-14. Then the entire regime was replaced.

The point I'm driving at is that Harbaugh never failed as an NFL head coach. In his worst season, he took an injury-ravaged team to an 8-8 record. He may not be an offensive genius like other candidates. But he's been a highly successful NFL head coach. Is he cooky and dumb sometimes? Sure. But he's built winning teams that play exactly how fans want the Bears to play. And if he wins, I could live with the antics.

200.gif

 

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5 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

I think this is the big point with the argument for McDaniels. After DEN he found out he isn't Bill and can't run the program like Bill does. Going from DEN and STL had to be a humbling experience because even when NE didn't have the best offensive talent (think the early dynasty times) they always had plenty of talent. STL was atrocious, no coach or staff could have made that work that year. Maybe he is conceited enough to not realize it though, I don't have any prof either way. Just hoping he has at least a normal amount of self-reflection available to him. lol

Absolutely. And I do believe it was ego with McDaniels. Especially in DEN and I have no real proof of this either. But the fact he immediately felt the need to impose his authority in DEN by butting heads with Cutler in such an ugly, public, and unprofessional manner was Belichick al over again. Not the ugly public part of it, but the authority part and trying to be a hardliner like Belichick. Alot of former players have come out and said Belichick doesn't play and it's not fun.That's the hardline authority.  Mcdaniels just handled WAY different. Almost as if he was trying to out-Belichick Belichick.

And then he doubled down on his ego when he was willing to roll with Orton over Cutler which to me screams "I don't care if Cutler is the better QB and has more potential, he wasn't my pick and I wanna prove that I can be Belichick and develop my own".

Needless to say, he couldn't do either of those goals he set for himself because this wasnt NE anymore and he didn't have Belichick to lean on.

22 minutes ago, Sugashane said:

To me this is an issue that a lot of college coaches have when they come to the pros. You go from owning a program (at varying levels) and now have to try to convince grown men to follow you and do what you say. Its completely different from telling a 22 year old and a 29 year old who has made millions due to his play. When i went to college I realized I knew nothing about football, couldn't draw up a cover 3 defense if you asked me to. I thought my coach was a freaking genius at the time. lol

You're absolutely right again. Age is a bigger factor than most people think. Especially in college (I had to go late for other reasons). But similarly, I had worked my way up from a line handler to machine op to supervisor at my first steel factory and I was only 25 at the time and I got alot of slanted eyes by older folk who I used to be really cool, with even tho I legit earned it, because they didn't like following orders from someone younger than them and had been their longer. I had re-earn my respect all over again even tho I helped build that company from the start and it's still thriving today. Fast forward, I went to another steel factory in Michigan for lesser pay and no more 20hr/7 days a week, year round (literally 7pm-12am). My brother in law got me the job and he was a supervisor so I didn't need to do an interview. He offered me a position and I told him I didn't want another desk job so we didn't even mention it HR that I was a former supervisor or anything. So once again, I worked my butt starting out as a lowly 2nd shift piler (grunt work) up to a crane op on 2nd shift up to machine op on 1st shift (THANK GOD) all in matter of 18 months. Now keep in mind, alot of these guys have been there 18-20 years and the hierarchy in this plant went like this.... shift supe>>Line leader>>Machine op>>QI (quality inspector) >>pilers and everyone else. So once again, everyone I was cool with before looked at me different just because I was younger. Even one of the dudes I asked to bring over to the line from another department because he hated it and was a good worker started looking at me different.

Sorry for the long rant/explanation but I'm sure you get my point by now lol. You get a brand new 35 old coach trying to teach other guys a new way to do things who are around their age or older (who have been together for years ) and it's not like they are just follow suit simply because you tell them to. You have to show them WHY they should follow you and, that isn't easy.

 

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35 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Harbaugh himself has stated it was not his decision to leave. Why did the 49ers drop him? Because he clashed with GM Trent Baalke

I wonder why he clashed. There are two sides to every story and you seem to only be choosing the ones that fit your narrative.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/jim-harbaugh-michigan-san-francisco-49ers-wore-out-welcome-alex-boone-hbo-real-sports-interview-coach/1tt55hdbpuq8l1smv0y0kxwlzh

 

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He does a great job of giving you that spark, that initial boom. But after a while, you just want to kick his ***. ... He just keeps pushing you, and you're like, "Dude, we got over the mountain. Stop. Let go." He kind of wore out his welcome. ...

I think he just pushed guys too far. He wanted too much, demanded too much, expected too much. You know, "We gotta go out and do this. We gotta go out and do this. We gotta go out and do this." And you'd be like, "This guy might be clinically insane. He's crazy." ... I think that if you're stuck in your ways enough, eventually people are just going to say, "Listen, we just can't work with this."

          Boone also said "the players had nothing to do with getting him [Harbaugh] fired."

 

 

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His presence and style made San Francisco particularly difficult to prepare for on a weekly basis, as Jen Floyd Engel of Fox Sports noted.

"This type of personality is intensely difficult to deal with and wickedly dangerous to coach against, especially in a league where increasingly too many coach not to lose, coach not to be fired, coach what is safe, coach what is easily defensible," Engel wrote.

 

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49 minutes ago, abstract_thought said:

Harbaugh himself has stated it was not his decision to leave. Why did the 49ers drop him? Because he clashed with GM Trent Baalke, who has since lost that job, moved to Jacksonville, and is now failing as a personnel guy there.

How did the 49ers do after Harbaugh left? First, they hired Jim Tomsula, who became a running joke halfway through the season and went 5-11. Then, they hired Chip Kelly, who went 2-14. Then the entire regime was replaced.

The point I'm driving at is that Harbaugh never failed as an NFL head coach. In his worst season, he took an injury-ravaged team to an 8-8 record. He may not be an offensive genius like other candidates. But he's been a highly successful NFL head coach. Is he cooky and dumb sometimes? Sure. But he's built winning teams that play exactly how fans want the Bears to play. And if he wins, I could live with the antics.

An interesting tidbit but Roman was the OC under Harbaugh and they made Kaepernick? Look good and now he is the OC for the Ravens and has their offense doing pretty well. Maybe he should be looked at a little more. 

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Guys, not to rain on anyone’s parade here, but there are reasons to want or not want every single coaching candidate. There’s a counterpoint to almost every point.

Ryan Day would bring explosive offensive schemes and familiarity with Fields… but will have questions about his ability to lead men vs. teenagers. McDaniels (and maybe Harbaugh depending on your perspective) failed as a NFL HC previously… but so did Belichick and Carroll their first go arounds. Roman runs a college-ish scheme with LJax… but it shows his willingness and ability to get the most out of the unique talent he has to work with. Daboll abandons use of his RBs frequently… but he’s got a unique runner in his QB and his RBs aren’t nearly as talented as his WRs. Leftwich has been OC for highly successful offenses… but he’s always had elite WRs to work with and now has had Brady. Kellen Moore has done great things with Dallas’ O… but he’s had a franchise QB, a star RB, a top OL and an absolutely loaded WR room his entire time running the offense. 

I want a HC who has shown adaptability to the talent he has, who will have the credibility and/or network to hire a good staff, who will command respect from both young players and vets, who will be able to successfully manage the HC game day stuff like timeout management, situational awareness, etc. and (if they’re also going to be the offensive play caller) who has a good feel for how to call plays that build off of each other vs. just pulling them seemingly at random from an oversized play card.

Of the non-retreads the more I work my way through the candidates the more I like Greg Roman for us above the other top candidates. Not only was he OC for Harbaugh and has he had success as the Ravens OC with LJax, but he was the OC in Buffalo in 2015-16 also and he had top 12 offenses there with Tyrod Taylor (another mobile passer) under center. The personnel on the teams where he’s succeeded largely align with what we have now (strong running games, mobile QBs, less than ideal WRs). He’s 49 years old so if he hits he could easily coach for 15-20 years, and he would bring an actual identity to our offense.

For me: 

1. Jim Harbaugh (probably not available)

2. Greg Roman 

3. Brian Daboll 

4. Josh McDaniels

5. Byron Leftwich 

6. Kellen Moore

Being candid though, I like anyone from this list, and since I got a bunch of crap from some of you when I floated my HC Bowles/OC Bill O’Brien suggestion I’ve decided to abandon it (for now at least) even though it would still intrigue me. 

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2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Absolutely. And I do believe it was ego with McDaniels. Especially in DEN and I have no real proof of this either. But the fact he immediately felt the need to impose his authority in DEN by butting heads with Cutler in such an ugly, public, and unprofessional manner was Belichick al over again. Not the ugly public part of it, but the authority part and trying to be a hardliner like Belichick. Alot of former players have come out and said Belichick doesn't play and it's not fun.That's the hardline authority.  Mcdaniels just handled WAY different. Almost as if he was trying to out-Belichick Belichick.

Yeah, he was anointed the offensive genius of the NFL and I'd struggle to stay humble with all the hype he got too. McDaniels had to receive chewings from Bill and saw them handled by Bill, so between being headstrong and not realizing how his situation just needed some adjustments rather than uprooting the entire base of the franchise, he really dug himself a hole.

Honestly if he had just taught the system and improved the defense they could have been in a REALLY good position. Cutler was no Brady, but he sure as hell was better than Orton by a mile. Him, Marshal, and Scheffler and co could have been a damn good offense. Just had to stop giving up 28ppg. lol

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

And then he doubled down on his ego when he was willing to roll with Orton over Cutler which to me screams "I don't care if Cutler is the better QB and has more potential, he wasn't my pick and I wanna prove that I can be Belichick and develop my own".

Needless to say, he couldn't do either of those goals he set for himself because this wasnt NE anymore and he didn't have Belichick to lean on.

Yep. Pride is a b**ch. Cassell had the advantage of knowing the system but just because Brady didn't have elite physical tools didn't mean he couldn't have used Cutler's howitzer. The talent disparity was big, way bigger than he could adjust in a year with, especially when he dealt Marshall too.

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

You're absolutely right again. Age is a bigger factor than most people think. Especially in college (I had to go late for other reasons). But similarly, I had worked my way up from a line handler to machine op to supervisor at my first steel factory and I was only 25 at the time and I got alot of slanted eyes by older folk who I used to be really cool, with even tho I legit earned it, because they didn't like following orders from someone younger than them and had been their longer. I had re-earn my respect all over again even tho I helped build that company from the start and it's still thriving today. Fast forward, I went to another steel factory in Michigan for lesser pay and no more 20hr/7 days a week, year round (literally 7pm-12am). My brother in law got me the job and he was a supervisor so I didn't need to do an interview. He offered me a position and I told him I didn't want another desk job so we didn't even mention it HR that I was a former supervisor or anything. So once again, I worked my butt starting out as a lowly 2nd shift piler (grunt work) up to a crane op on 2nd shift up to machine op on 1st shift (THANK GOD) all in matter of 18 months. Now keep in mind, alot of these guys have been there 18-20 years and the hierarchy in this plant went like this.... shift supe>>Line leader>>Machine op>>QI (quality inspector) >>pilers and everyone else. So once again, everyone I was cool with before looked at me different just because I was younger. Even one of the dudes I asked to bring over to the line from another department because he hated it and was a good worker started looking at me different.

This is actually one of the reasons I think McVay has done such a good job. Literally is younger than his LT, and reportedly are best friends too? lol 

When ran my crew I was way younger than a few guys but they had enough going on they just wanted consistent work and good pay. So no issues there. When I went to the sanitation business I flew up from HR to Site Manager and went from the person helping everyone out to the person making sure everyone did their job without any BS. Had a lot of people mad that I was "the guy" but money was damn good. Finally got to a Complex Manager spot after helping fix a few plants in the southeast and was tired of being in a hotel every day, and then had to do the 7pm to 8am thing 13 out of 14 days. Even had to take my work phone and laptop to my vacation this June and be "on call" all night to answer questions, direct my management crew, settle the fat POS General Manager down when he had a fit. Took a job making quite a bit less but the 5 day workweek is AMAZING to be back on. Not sure I'd take my last job back for less than $200K to deal with all the BS and lack of home life.

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Sorry for the long rant/explanation but I'm sure you get my point by now lol. You get a brand new 35 old coach trying to teach other guys a new way to do things who are around their age or older (who have been together for years ) and it's not like they are just follow suit simply because you tell them to. You have to show them WHY they should follow you and, that isn't easy.

 

It was what I dealt with too, so I get it. My AM would send me to a place and tell me he'd be there in 3 weeks, take 2-3 days and find everything wrong I can, then fix it. Got to go all over but I know it had to be annoying for these Site Managers to get told the 33 year old is coming in and retraining them and their crew and reporting all issues and noncompliance. Some of theses guys were doing sanitation since the late 80s and early 90s and I'm telling THEM what they're doing wrong? Had some combative attitudes but when I brought the customer's findings before I got there and then each Friday after they had little to say. I wasn't doing anything special, just made people follow the company's steps and if there was BS excuses I would do the job myself and have them shadow me. No one wants a young punk from HR showing them up. lol

 

2 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

I wonder why he clashed. There are two sides to every story and you seem to only be choosing the ones that fit your narrative.

https://www.sportingnews.com/us/nfl/news/jim-harbaugh-michigan-san-francisco-49ers-wore-out-welcome-alex-boone-hbo-real-sports-interview-coach/1tt55hdbpuq8l1smv0y0kxwlzh

Harbaugh is absolutely a pain in the ***. No way around it. Knowing I don't have to deal with him makes the choice easier for me  lol, but these GMs only (should) get to keep their jobs if they win. He has done that from Stanford to SF, to Michigan. I imagine most would say the salary/prestige of position/pay is enough to deal with a jackass for a coach. Lovie IIRC was really liked as a coach by players and FO but he just wasn't good enough to really sustain success. Didn't have back to back winning seasons but once and only 5 in 11 years. I'd take the jerk HC that could win consistently over the well liked and respected man who hovered at .500 win percentage.

That being said Harbaugh isn't my top choice either, just stating my opinion on the matter.

 

11 minutes ago, AZBearsFan said:

Guys, not to rain on anyone’s parade here, but there are reasons to want or not want every single coaching candidate. There’s a counterpoint to almost every point.

Ryan Day would bring explosive offensive schemes and familiarity with Fields… but will have questions about his ability to lead men vs. teenagers. McDaniels (and maybe Harbaugh depending on your perspective) failed as a NFL HC previously… but so did Belichick and Carroll their first go arounds. Roman runs a college-ish scheme with LJax… but it shows his willingness and ability to get the most out of the unique talent he has to work with. Daboll abandons use of his RBs frequently… but he’s got a unique runner in his QB and his RBs aren’t nearly as talented as his WRs. Leftwich has been OC for highly successful offenses… but he’s always had elite WRs to work with and now has had Brady. Kellen Moore has done great things with Dallas’ O… but he’s had a franchise QB, a star RB, a top OL and an absolutely loaded WR room his entire time running the offense. 

I want a HC who has shown adaptability to the talent he has, who will have the credibility and/or network to hire a good staff, who will command respect from both young players and vets, who will be able to successfully manage the HC game day stuff like timeout management, situational awareness, etc. and (if they’re also going to be the offensive play caller) who has a good feel for how to call plays that build off of each other vs. just pulling them seemingly at random from an oversized play card.

Of the non-retreads the more I work my way through the candidates the more I like Greg Roman for us above the other top candidates. Not only was he OC for Harbaugh and has he had success as the Ravens OC with LJax, but he was the OC in Buffalo in 2015-16 also and he had top 12 offenses there with Tyrod Taylor (another mobile passer) under center. The personnel on the teams where he’s succeeded largely align with what we have now (strong running games, mobile QBs, less than ideal WRs). He’s 49 years old so if he hits he could easily coach for 15-20 years, and he would bring an actual identity to our offense.

For me: 

1. Jim Harbaugh (probably not available)

2. Greg Roman 

3. Brian Daboll 

4. Josh McDaniels

5. Byron Leftwich 

6. Kellen Moore

Being candid though, I like anyone from this list, and since I got a bunch of crap from some of you when I floated my HC Bowles/OC Bill O’Brien suggestion I’ve decided to abandon it (for now at least) even though it would still intrigue me. 

Pure college coaches just have me nervous. The lack of success most have had just sucks the hope out of me. lol  I'd still be able to get excited for Day but probably would be cautiously optimistic for his hire. Historically we already have enough going against us without adding in the normal trend of college coaches failing. Maybe since more college coaches are blending their college schemes with more pro-ready play it will change though. 

Roman is a guy I would be ecstatic for. as I would for any on your list.

The Bowles/BOB duo still works for me too. I liked Bowles a lot ever since I saw his mindf**k of Luck with the 2 DL defense. Absolutely had Luck and the entire Colts offenses' heads spinning. BOB needs to only have control of plays, offensive development, and no other control. Then he is a good pick IMO and would serve Fields well. Plus after the HOU debacle, who is going to poach him? You literally have the chance at consistency for your offensive and defensive playcaller/scheme installers for 5-10 years - assuming you don't draft/FA like garbage and just have the least talented team in the league. Of course my overthinking makes it mean we got Rick Smith too (the BOB connection while he learned from his mistake still).

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3 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

Absolutely. And I do believe it was ego with McDaniels. Especially in DEN and I have no real proof of this either. But the fact he immediately felt the need to impose his authority in DEN by butting heads with Cutler in such an ugly, public, and unprofessional manner was Belichick al over again. Not the ugly public part of it, but the authority part and trying to be a hardliner like Belichick. Alot of former players have come out and said Belichick doesn't play and it's not fun.That's the hardline authority.  Mcdaniels just handled WAY different. Almost as if he was trying to out-Belichick Belichick.

And then he doubled down on his ego when he was willing to roll with Orton over Cutler which to me screams "I don't care if Cutler is the better QB and has more potential, he wasn't my pick and I wanna prove that I can be Belichick and develop my own".

Needless to say, he couldn't do either of those goals he set for himself because this wasnt NE anymore and he didn't have Belichick to lean on.

Spot on.  Especially this part.

In McD's mind HE was the reason his offenses succeeded not the QB.  Brady proved him wrong many times after this but back then Brady had not established himself as the GOAT.  I have to think the Tebow pick smacked of the same egocentric thinking that he could even take a guy who was a very poor prospect for an NFL passer and still win with him.

Up to that point Denver had fired only on other HC after 2 seasons and that was Wade Phillips who had been Dan Reeves DC for four years prior to that.  Phillips  was always a great DC but in that era a .500 record simply didn't cut it.  McD didn't even last two seasons and no one shed a single tear when he was fired after going 11/17/.393. That's Marc Trestman kind of numbers.

Even in NE how successful has McD been without Brady as his QB and now he has Mac Jones who if I don't miss my guess NE will turn into another Brady like NFL QB.  No one will dispute that McD has been a very good OC under Bill Beliehick but many will dispute his abilities as a HC in another system not built as NE has built theirs under Belichick.

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8 hours ago, JAF-N72EX said:

See that's the thing right there though. How everything is done in NE cannot be duplicated. It's super rare. You have the greatest HC of all time who came in and built a cultural foundation and stood by it based on his philosophies while also hiring a staff who have helped him protect those beliefs and also just happened to stumble into the greatest QB of all time. All of this happened at once, and they all stayed together for so long that it almost became muscle memory. Everyone knew their roles and they played it.

But this is why I think alot of those coaches who leave for HC jobs don't do so well because they try too hard to replicate what they experienced in NE and you just can't do it. Those are unrealistic expectations.

I get what your saying about taking a risk. You're not wrong. But if I'm gonna take a risk on anyone then I would rather it be with someone who atleast has HC experience with a good track record IMO. I would probably be more inclined to take Harbaugh before McDaniels.

I would probably take Harbaugh before McDaniels too...but I doubt we can get Harbaugh...

I also agree it would be difficult to create the exact same culture outside of NE...but I believe McDaniels is more equipped than the guys who have came before him...most of which were defensive guys...McDaniels has had more of a say than those guys ever did in how a side of the ball was ran...he has been there longer than any of the rest of those guys...he has also been a head coach and will have learnt from some of the mistakes he made...for me at this point people are using the fact he has worked with the greatest head coach in what has been the best franchise of the the last two decades as a negative...I will never subscribe to that thinking and won't mark him down for the failure of others. 

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