Body Positivity

[Mox]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

Well that’s not really a measure of any other trait or attribute, just a hormone level.  
 

If that’s the measure, do I become an ultra Chad by hitting up the dude at my local gym and go ham with a killer cycle? Is that how one would develop masculine traits?

I'm pretty clearly speaking in broad terms. Masculinity has been intrinsically tied to testosterone since the term was coined. Like I said above, if you want to argue semantics, change the terms to your liking, and the point remains. I'm not outraged about it as you incorrectly assumed, it's simply a basic observation. It is what it is.

[Whicker]

7 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

100% agreed here. Even then, while physical violence is an inherently negative masculine trait, I love football, I appreciate a good boxing/MMA match or movie, I like dudes who step up to the plate and hit bombs, etc.

I'm physically very attracted to my wife who is WAY hotter than me (I'm sure this is the case for most of us), and I generally don't display a lot of emotion/negative emotion...and guess what? That doesn't make me toxic, nor is it bad if other guys are more emotional and cry more or appreciate the arts as opposed to football or what not.

You likely had a father who loved you and taught you through example of how to be a good masculine man. Unfortunately, we live in a society where ~50% of children grow up without a stable male authority figure. This leads a lot of young men to not understand the boundaries of their masculinity and end up being the example of the "toxic male."

[mission27]

6 minutes ago, animaltested said:

Using testosterone to judge masculinity is silly, since most of the criteria we use to judge masculinity is performative. 

Masculinity, like smugness, is a product of several factors 

The MoL has been credited by many for discovering the Masculinity equation which is expressed as follows:

Masculinity = Testosterone Levels x Lean Mass x Testosterone Efficiency Coefficient x Smugness

Testosterone Levels measure the amount of testosterone in your blood

Lean mass reflects the fact that bigger folks have higher absolute levels of testosterone available 

Testosterone Efficiency Coefficient measures how efficiently testosterone is converted into masculine acts

Smugness measures your ability to amplify and project your masculine acts into an overall general perception of your masculinity in the minds of others

 

[Chiefer]

Grandfather told me that every morning you wake up, you look in the mirror and say “im the most handsome man on earth. Nothing can stop me, etc”

basically a bunch of mental and physical compliments to yourself to start the day. Honestly felt like that has Helped with confidence issues(due to being short)and depression m ive had my whole life.

i call it the fake it till you make it approach. I fake being self-confident enough and pretty soon i am confident in myself, and view myself more in a positive way.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

3 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I'm pretty clearly speaking in broad terms. Masculinity has been intrinsically tied to testosterone since the term was coined. Like I said above, if you want to argue semantics, change the terms to your liking, and the point remains. I'm not outraged about it as you incorrectly assumed, it's simply a basic observation. It is what it is.

You’re doing nothing more than proving my point for me.  Those are YOUR definitions (and others) of masculinity, not everyone’s.

If I said I find masculine traits to include expressing your emotions like a well functioning human, having enough self confidence to cry if you feel the urge, being comfortable enough in your own skin to allow your daughter to paint your nails, going to a Price parade to support a friend or family member, etc, many people would say those things are the antithesis of masculine.  
 

So who’s right? Why is it perceived to be better to be emotionally repressed/stunted and more concerned with how others will perceive you than to do things to help and support others?  Because this is really what we’re discussing here, right?  This is the decrease in masculinity people are alluding to, no? No one is referencing test levels except you.

[MWil23]

2 minutes ago, Whicker said:

You likely had a father who loved you and taught you through example of how to be a good masculine man. Unfortunately, we live in a society where ~50% of children grow up without a stable male authority figure. This leads a lot of young men to not understand the boundaries of their masculinity and end up being the example of the "toxic male."

He was the best, no doubt about it. And you aren't wrong there, as it's something our coaching staff have talked about endlessly on so many levels. I agree with this sentiment, but at the same point, I do get tired of many of those advocating against traditional masculinity to the degree where many of us men are shamed for embracing aggression, stoic emotions, being gentlemen/treating women in a certain way (all of these appropriately of course), as opposed to those who advocate for the opposite being the only inherent way and BETTER than classic masculinity, which I adamantly disagree with. That's what I'm trying to say I guess. 

[Mox]

Just now, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You’re doing nothing more than proving my point for me.  Those are YOUR definitions (and others) of masculinity, not everyone’s.

If I said I find masculine traits to include expressing your emotions like a well functioning human, having enough self confidence to cry if you feel the urge, being comfortable enough in your own skin to allow your daughter to paint your nails, going to a Price parade to support a friend or family member, etc, many people would say those things are the antithesis of masculine.  
 

So who’s right? Why is it perceived to be better to be emotionally repressed/stunted and more concerned with how others will perceive you than to do things to help and support others?  Because this is really what we’re discussing here, right?  This is the decrease in masculinity people are alluding to, no? No one is referencing test levels except you.

lol that has nothing to do with what I said. I didn't define anything, I said two things are intrinsically tied together, and that second paragraph is quite possibly the single biggest strawman I've ever seen.

[MWil23]

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

You’re doing nothing more than proving my point for me.  Those are YOUR definitions (and others) of masculinity, not everyone’s.

If I said I find masculine traits to include expressing your emotions like a well functioning human,

What if they don't naturally express their emotions and are more stoic?

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

having enough self confidence to cry if you feel the urge,

That I absolutely agree with...but what if they don't? Should they feel pressured to display emotions that don't really exist? TBH I'm tired of that narrative.

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

being comfortable enough in your own skin to allow your daughter to paint your nails,

I'll never allow this for myself, but I have no problem playing dress up with them, have done so before, and will do so again.

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

going to a Price parade to support a friend or family member, etc, many people would say those things are the antithesis of masculine.  

*Resisting the urge to make a Price is Right joke*

5 minutes ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

So who’s right? Why is it perceived to be better to be emotionally repressed/stunted and more concerned with how others will perceive you than to do things to help and support others?  Because this is really what we’re discussing here, right?  This is the decrease in masculinity people are alluding to, no? No one is referencing test levels except you.

Why does it have to be a matter of "right"? TBH, I think many of us are tired of being shamed for enjoying classic masculinity and raising our children to also embrace it so long as it's done appropriately.

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

Just now, Bullet Club said:

lol that has nothing to do with what I said.

All you’ve said this far is test levels are the gauge and literally everyone else in the thread is discussing character traits.

Just now, Bullet Club said:

I didn't define anything, I said two things are intrinsically tied together, and that second paragraph is quite possibly the single biggest strawman I've ever seen.

It’s not remotely straw man, I never said you thought any of that stuff, just provided an example of my point.

[Whicker]

4 minutes ago, MWil23 said:

He was the best, no doubt about it. And you aren't wrong there, as it's something our coaching staff have talked about endlessly on so many levels. I agree with this sentiment, but at the same point, I do get tired of many of those advocating against traditional masculinity to the degree where many of us men are shamed for embracing aggression, stoic emotions, being gentlemen/treating women in a certain way (all of these appropriately of course), as opposed to those who advocate for the opposite being the only inherent way and BETTER than classic masculinity, which I adamantly disagree with. That's what I'm trying to say I guess. 

I agree with you. It's all connected in a viscious cycle. Man grows up fatherless -> makes bad decisions and gets wrong woman pregnant -> fatherless man becomes deadbeat dad and/or bad person and woman takes the child -> child grows up fatherless. Plenty of women see this happen to themselves and other women around them, and they focus on the part where he's a deadbeat dead, abuser, etc, and call him out on it. 

[animaltested]

23 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

I'm pretty clearly speaking in broad terms. Masculinity has been intrinsically tied to testosterone since the term was coined. Like I said above, if you want to argue semantics, change the terms to your liking, and the point remains. I'm not outraged about it as you incorrectly assumed, it's simply a basic observation. It is what it is.

Since masculinity or testosterone was coined?

The word masculinity has origins to old french (1400s) and Latin; testosterone was "discovered" in the late 1800s. All masculine means is the characteristics of being "male". In romance languages (and many other languages) objects can be masculine or feminine as far as I know objects don't contain testosterone.

Moving away from semantics, from a historical and culture sense, "being male" has mostly been the way someone acted/ dressed/ looked. Its mostly been defined through actions, values and endeavors within subjects like Art, Economics, Politics, Work ethic, Philosophy, & Athletics. You could even argue most emotionally based criteria is performative; since it is usually encouraged or discouraged at the societal level. 

Again, Id argue MOST of these characteristics we have used to judge masculinity are not in any way related to physiology and said characteristics change throughout time and culture. 

Edited December 9, 2021 by animaltested

[Mox]

1 minute ago, animaltested said:

Since masculinity or testosterone was coined?

The word masculinity has origins to old french (1400s) and Latin; testosterone was "discovered" in the late 1800s. All masculine means is the characteristics of being "male". In romance languages (and many other languages) objects can be masculine or feminine as far as I know objects don't contain testosterone.

Moving away from semantics, from a historical and culture sense, "being male" has mostly been the way someone acted/ dressed/ looked. Its mostly been defined through actions, values and endeavors within subjects like Art, Economics, Politics, Work ethic, Philosophy, & Athletics. You could even argue most emotionally based criteria is performative; since it is usually encouraged or discouraged at the societal level. 

Again, Id argue MOST of these characteristics we have used to judge masculinity are not in any way related to physiology and said characteristics change throughout time and culture. 

Since testosterone was coined. That's a fair point. I see what you're saying.

[MookieMonstah]

42 minutes ago, mission27 said:

That's just the media, they lie and mislead about pretty much anything for ratings 

But the dude should lose some weight for real

His playing weight has been right around 285, he should definitely try and get that down to 270-275 but McMahon saying he was 330 is flat out outrageous. 

[LETSGOBROWNIES]

1 minute ago, MWil23 said:

What if they don't naturally express their emotions and are more stoic?

What about it?  That’s ok too. There doesn’t have to be a right and wrong, that’s kind of my point.

Quote

That I absolutely agree with...but what if they don't? Should they feel pressured to display emotions that don't really exist? TBH I'm tired of that narrative.

then they don’t and that’s ok.  But it doesn’t make you “more of a man” to not cry nor does crying “make you look like a woman”.  That’s the toxic part of toxic masculinity some people don’t care for and feel should change. No one is saying you have to cry, they’re saying it shouldn’t be viewed as a negative if you do.

Quote

I'll never allow this for myself, but I have no problem playing dress up with them, have done so before, and will do so again.

well one is just as silly as the other and neither mean anything other than you’re being a good dad.

Quote

*Resisting the urge to make a Price is Right joke*

Why does it have to be a matter of "right"? TBH, I think many of us are tired of being shamed for enjoying classic masculinity and raising our children to also embrace it so long as it's done appropriately.

Lol I’m not saying it does, but if part of that is telling your kid to repress emotions or be more concerned with how some stranger may judge you than to be your true self, there’s a line a mile long of psychiatrists who will tell you that you (not you literally) are in fact “wrong” when it comes to how you’re impacting your kids emotionally. 

[mission27]

1 minute ago, LETSGOBROWNIES said:

So who’s right? Why is it perceived to be better to be emotionally repressed/stunted and more concerned with how others will perceive you than to do things to help and support others?  Because this is really what we’re discussing here, right?  This is the decrease in masculinity people are alluding to, no? No one is referencing test levels except you.

Where you say emotionally repressed/stunted, some would say stoic and level headed.  Life is hard and bad stuff happens to us from the day we're born to the day we die, we still need to get up and go to work and feed our families.  Isn't their social utility in being able to control and manage your emotions and in not letting them effect your reaction to situations?  And even if you can feel and express these emotions (as some can) while still doing your job, maybe there is value to others who are less strong in seeing you as outwardly strong and resolute? 

This is a traditionally "masculine" trait but we see this in plenty of women too and celebrate it in women too.

I'm not arguing that stoic/repressed is better than emotionally expressive.  We need both types of people for a fully functioning society.  A society that is too repressed and hardened isn't good either.  For example Germany in the 30s and 40s. 

But labeling people who are less emotionally expressive as toxic is just as bad as labeling people who are more emotionally expressive as weak. 

The last couple of years in particular has shown a real deficit of stoicism and level-headedness in our society.  Everyone is so focused on their own feelings and incapable of separating their emotions and fears from a problem.  Has that led to less negative, traditionally masculine behaviors?  Not really.  Violence is way up.  But it has made us a whole lot less able to address big problems like COVID when compared to how most of us believe our grandparents, for example, would've handled it.  And I think many people who share the sentiment that we are living in the "least masculine" era or whatever are basically talking about that.