Which trade was more damaging - Seattle trading for Jamal Adams or Houston trading for Laremy Tunsil?

[ET80]

2 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Wellllll you see one player is a franchise LT and the other is a glorified linebacker who actually isn't that good at all.

At least the Texans got a top 5 player at a very important position. The Seahawks got....an average Safety.

I actually think Tunsil is the Jamal Adams of LTs. VERY good (if not elite) at one part of their job, but a disaster at the other part of their job.

Tunsil is a fantastic pass blocker... but is a lost cause in run blocking. It's not even that he can't be good at it, he simply doesn't try.

Now, I'll concede that pass blocking > run blocking and coverage > box support - so by virtue of that, Tunsil wins this debate. But I did want to call this out; Tunsil has some flaws (he's also a bit of a penalty hog, false starts and a bunch of holds).

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

Just now, ET80 said:

I actually think Tunsil is the Jamal Adams of LTs. VERY good (if not elite) at one part of their job, but a disaster at the other part of their job.

Tunsil is a fantastic pass blocker... but is a lost cause in run blocking. It's not even that he can't be good at it, he simply doesn't try.

Now, I'll concede that pass blocking > run blocking and coverage > box support - so by virtue of that, Tunsil wins this debate. But I did want to call this out; Tunsil has some flaws (he's also a bit of a penalty hog, false starts and a bunch of holds).

I mean, I wouldn't even say Jamal Adams is elite at anything besides blitzing, and that's such a weird/niche thing for a safety to be only good at, it's like saying "yeah my LT can't pass block or run block effectively, but have you seen him on trap blocks!? unstoppable!"

[scar988]

The Houston trade is way worse is my point.

[Malfatron]

Seattle for sure.

Houston was screwed regardless of the trade, so the Adams trade set Seattle back more

[Forge]

2 hours ago, scar988 said:

The Houston trade is way worse is my point.

At least Houston got a valuable player at an important position. 

Seattle arguably obtained a guy who is a liability to the defense 

[DawgX]

Did Adams' play just really decline since being traded or was he just always overrated?

Houston is in a more hopeless situation, but at least Tunsil is a top LT.

[Spartacus]

10 hours ago, DawgX said:

Did Adams' play just really decline since being traded or was he just always overrated?

Houston is in a more hopeless situation, but at least Tunsil is a top LT.

I wonder if a part of it isn't scheme related. Adams needs to be in the box or close to it but it seems Seattle has no choice but to pull him back unless he is blitzing the QB. I don't know enough about Seattles scheme to really confirm but he was playing 2 deep alot against the Packers. That could just be the Aaron Rodgers affect though. 

[Phinsesq]

I'd vote Seattle for the simple fact the Texans issues are not due to the Tunsil trade but rather the insane circumstances and decisions that followed. Sure they would love to have the capital back hindsight being 20/20. They had a franchise QB they wanted to protect and arguably the #1 WR in the NFL at the time and were looking to "win now". No one predicted the implosion that Houston fans would have to witness. Even if Houston had those picks I don't trust that front office to make the right picks, Tunsil could conceivably be the best value they would have come up with anyway.  

 

 

 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

7 hours ago, Spartacus said:

I wonder if a part of it isn't scheme related. Adams needs to be in the box or close to it but it seems Seattle has no choice but to pull him back unless he is blitzing the QB. I don't know enough about Seattles scheme to really confirm but he was playing 2 deep alot against the Packers. That could just be the Aaron Rodgers affect though. 

Seattle does play him primarily near the LoS because they want to be a Cover 1/3 defense like they were when the LoB was in their prime. Trouble is, they don't have good CB's and Jamal Adams is not Kam Chancellor AND they don't have a pass rush.

Either way, Adams is just trash in coverage no matter where he is.

17 hours ago, DawgX said:

Did Adams' play just really decline since being traded or was he just always overrated?

Houston is in a more hopeless situation, but at least Tunsil is a top LT.

I would want to know this as well.

[Dome]

On 12/16/2021 at 2:09 PM, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

I mean, I wouldn't even say Jamal Adams is elite at anything besides blitzing, and that's such a weird/niche thing for a safety to be only good at

He's like a fast twitch Roman Harper. Jamal being the much better athlete but with a very similar skillset. Harper was a blitzing LBer born far too small and not nearly explosive enough, it's amazing he made it to the NFL and had as long of a career he did (even made two pro-bowls) with a RAS of 4.9 (the 4.9 is likely inflated too, due to those being pro-day times, thus not as reliable) compared to Adams 7.1. 

Harper was not good in coverage. He had passable straight line speed and change of direction, but any NFL WR who was known as a good athlete compared to NFL standards was gonna give him problems. He had 7 INTs in 9 seasons with the Saints and a good portion of those came off fluke plays (tipped pass, wrong route by the WR, the QB just doesn't see him lurking like a LBer and throws it right too him, etc) rather than tight coverage. He was significantly better in zone when he could watch the play develop, but he was a huge liability in man. Not a guy that constantly got torched, he was too smart for that, but it happened from time to time. He was regularly just a step too late.

He was a tackling machine, a fundamentally sound tackler who liked making big hits. But he was not a playmaker against the run (less than 10 TFLs in his first 3 seasons combined, he did reach nice marks of 9 and 11 but only in those two seasons was he really a weapon against the run). In reality (I'm sure Saints fans will give me grief for this) he racked up a ton of tackles because he was a very smart player and had a knack of knowing where the ball was gonna be and putting himself in the vicinity, not because he was elite or even great against the run. He was a poor athlete (speed and agility was OK, but the explosiveness needed to be a true playmaker was severely lacking) and was frequently just a step too late to make the play. Sense a theme?

I wouldn't call Harper elite as a pass rushing safety due to the lack of consistency, but his 7.5 sacks in 2011 can't be ignored either, at the time that was 2nd most by a DB behind Adrian Wilson's 8 sacks in 2005, which was bested by Adams in his first year with the Seahawks with 9.5. Harper also had 4 sacks in his sophomore season and 3 the year before his 7.5 sack season.

In 2011 the Saints decided to use Harper like a 4-3 Will LB more often than they had been and he racked up 7.5 sacks in that role. When Vilma, coming off a Pro Bowl year, went down with a knee injury in Week 11 Harper was the guy that stepped up as that thumper and leader of a defense that finished 13th in scoring and allowed just 18.5 pts on avg with Harper filling Vilma's shoes on many downs in that time. He finished with 7.5 sacks and 13 QB hits along with 9 TFLs and 3 FFs.

In the 2011 playoffs, Harper had a great divisional game. He sacked Alex Smith once and shared another sack with Martez Wilson, he also had a forced fumble and pass deflection. Unfortunately, he was a step to late to make a play on the ball with :09 left to play and gave up Vernon Davis' most iconic TD.

Saints never committed to making him a WLB after that, despite it likely being his best fit overall. I think they were too focused on the 2-3 run plays a game where he would totally get washed against an OT. He had less of an impact at SS but also never got forklifted and removed from the play at the LOS by a lineman when he was in that role. 

Our own Robert Davis of Football's Future fame had a good draft profile on him.

 

IDK how much a blitzing DB's success is based on skill as opposed to opportunity and scheme, and the players around them the OL has to contend with.

Edited December 18, 2021 by Dome

[squire12]

On 12/16/2021 at 12:49 PM, Danger said:

Seattle.

LT > S

Bill O'Brien made countless moves that were dumb and ill-informed. That was just the worst of them. So it's only part of the downfall.

agree

Positional value tilts this in the direction of Seattle being the worse trade.  

[Xenos]

Seattle. Because you can’t give up that much for a safety. Not even the best safety in the league.

At least with Tunsil it was getting an LT to protect your franchise QB at the time. And it actually helped them make the playoffs that year.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

52 minutes ago, Xenos said:

Seattle. Because you can’t give up that much for a safety. Not even the best safety in the league.

At least with Tunsil it was getting an LT to protect your franchise QB at the time. And it actually helped them make the playoffs that year.

tbh I would give up that much for Ed Reed in 3rd/4th year because prime Ed Reed in today's NFL was the GOAT ballhawk and that is a premium. However, paying that much for a glorified linebacker in today's NFL is hilariously bad.

[Xenos]

21 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

tbh I would give up that much for Ed Reed in 3rd/4th year because prime Ed Reed in today's NFL was the GOAT ballhawk and that is a premium. However, paying that much for a glorified linebacker in today's NFL is hilariously bad.

I meant Adam’s wasn’t even the best safety in the league currently. So it made even less sense to pay that much for him.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

47 minutes ago, Xenos said:

I meant Adam’s wasn’t even the best safety in the league currently. So it made even less sense to pay that much for him.

When the trade happened I would argue he was regarded as probably the 2nd or 3rd best safety in the league, but that's besides the point - EVEN THEN because of the type of player he was I would have never made that trade because Seattle wanted to play him like Kam Chancellor, and listen I love Kam Chancellor but you don't mortgage your future for a Walmart version of him.