2024 NFL Draft

[NCOUGHMAN]

8 hours ago, jimkelly02 said:

This isn’t meant to go against what your saying… this is more of an blanket response to the topic.

lots of players get “converted”.  Some guys play 1 maybe 2 years at a position in college then move to a new position where they play the remaining years while others “converts” play their entire college careers at one position and then move to another in the pros.  I think there is such a varying scale in terms of how much of a project the players move to a new position is.  
Players in college move positions for a variety of reasons.  This could be because they’ve added weight/grew, strong competition at one position and an opening at another presented an opportunity to see more snaps, etc.  

I think there needs to be way better classification of the word “convert”.  

I have an issue with the story that gets remembered and retold about Urlacher. First, he didn’t have the 258lb frame he had in the NFL while he was playing in college.  In fact, he put on 20lbs between his senior season ending and the combine.  His first two years he was in the 220s and played safety, then he got a new HC at New Mexico who ran a 3-3-5 defense that essentially let Urlacher line up a few yards further off the ball than the LBs and attack the ball on some plays and on others he was a LB who was given the ability to freelance.  His responsibilities in coverage were very minimal… he ran with TEs with deep help, he wasn’t dropping down into the slot to cover slot WRs like real free safeties are asked to do.  He was allowed to freelance a ton because of his playmaking ability on a team where he was head and shoulders more talented than his teammates.  There is the idea out there that Urlacher was playing free safety…. As if he had deep coverage responsibilities.  It’s laughable.  If that happened on more than 10 snaps I’d be amazed.  I just have a bone to pick with the revisionist history of Urlacher’s college career.  

While I understand why some people are against the typical safety to LB converts and i think that is the new waive of the NFL and you have to adapt.  as the game goes towards a more passing league, rules change to help the passing game, and passing offensives advance linebackers need to be faster and better in coverage.  It’s just a natural progression to take larger Safeties and move then into LBs.  At first there was a large bust rate but as time goes on and the development of these players starts earlier and earlier in college I think you’ll see higher success rates.  Also, as coaches get better at building defenses that put these guys in more favorable roles their success will improve.

But like anything else you have to take every player on a case by case situation.  Every player has some varying degree of success rate.

I love 3-3-5 with the right personnel I can switch to a 4-2-5, 5-1-5 (killer vs spread) 5-4-2 presnap I get exotic af with my defense 

[BackinBlack]

6 hours ago, jpaulthe1st said:

Keep in mind that AOC is also playing with inferior talent while he’s on the field. Also, it isn’t like he’s getting schemed up plays with guys running wide open. He’s standing in the pocket, making quick reads, and getting the ball out accurately. Those are all traits that extrapolate out regardless of talent level on the field. 

not trying to take anything away from AOC, hes doing as well as we couldve asked. 
but Dorsette, Keelan Cole and then Tucker are probably better depth than the CB talent hes going against, id imagine same with abdulla out of the back field. 
Cole started a game for us last year i think, now hes running against 3rd string cbs, tough to say inferior talent is making it tougher. 

the TEs ill give you, but overall for preseason, id imagine our depth on O skill positions is actually a net positive for AOC considering he is playing against inferior talent as well. 

As you said though, he is doing everything right. Which is the important part. 
 

[Styrian Raider]

5 hours ago, BackinBlack said:

not trying to take anything away from AOC, hes doing as well as we couldve asked. 
but Dorsette, Keelan Cole and then Tucker are probably better depth than the CB talent hes going against, id imagine same with abdulla out of the back field. 
Cole started a game for us last year i think, now hes running against 3rd string cbs, tough to say inferior talent is making it tougher. 

the TEs ill give you, but overall for preseason, id imagine our depth on O skill positions is actually a net positive for AOC considering he is playing against inferior talent as well. 

As you said though, he is doing everything right. Which is the important part. 
 

All the other Rookie QBs in this class were also only facing 2nd and 3rd String Guys. And in comparison to them AOC just looked better, which of course still doesn't mean that he will be the best QB of this class.

[jimkelly02]

On 8/21/2023 at 2:27 PM, NCOUGHMAN said:

I love 3-3-5 with the right personnel I can switch to a 4-2-5, 5-1-5 (killer vs spread) 5-4-2 presnap I get exotic af with my defense 

I always liked the 3-3-5 defense.  

[jimkelly02]

18 hours ago, Styrian Raider said:

All the other Rookie QBs in this class were also only facing 2nd and 3rd String Guys. And in comparison to them AOC just looked better, which of course still doesn't mean that he will be the best QB of this class.

100%!  I love how some people try and frame that.  It’s a manipulative comparison in that sense.

Edited August 23, 2023 by jimkelly02

[Humble_Beast]

AOC has been solid. I’m fine with him as QB2 but I don’t view him as QB of the future… have to remember McDaniels coaching preseason like it’s the playoffs lol 

[jimkelly02]

On 8/21/2023 at 7:51 PM, BackinBlack said:

but Dorsette, Keelan Cole and then Tucker are probably better depth than the CB talent hes going against, id imagine same with abdulla out of the back field. 
Cole started a game for us last year i think, now hes running against 3rd string cbs, tough to say inferior talent is making it tougher. 

That’s a very important detail that so many, if not everyone’s omitted.  O’Connell is playing great, but he’s also playing with guys who are clearly better than the opponents.  Honestly, if you’re trying to build up a developmental QB that’s really how it should be done.  Put him in best Situation to have success then slowly scale down the difference in talent in game with him vs against him.

I really don’t want to come off as bashing O’Connell…. I just haven’t seen enough for me to think he’s our franchise QB.  While I’ve seen far more good than bad, there’s still some throws that have shown his average arm strength.  He isn’t amazing at driving the ball on deeper routes, as he can put too much air under those throws.  Another reason I’m not ready to validate him as the future is we just spent what was it 3-5 years in a brutal fan civil war over Carr being a franchise QB for us or not.  I’ve got to see some really darn good tape and a good amount of it before I’m willing to call him the future.

[jimkelly02]

On 8/21/2023 at 10:44 AM, bucksavage1 said:

- I think KC and Den overpaid for their tackles. Donovan Smith is over the hill and may give KC issues. McGlinchey is just a hair above average who was overpaid. He’s not that much better than JE. 
 

- I disagree with O’Connell. He definitely can be a franchise QB. He’s only played two preseason games and played exceptionally well. Better than all the so called franchise QBs drafted this year. The goal would be to continue to develop him. His arm talent is enough to be a starter and win games. The test now as you said would be to see him in regular season play as it is with all young players

Yeah KC and Denver overpaid their tackles…. That’s non debatable.  But in this division teams have to put a premium on protecting the QB, which lead to them being willing to overpay.  If JE has a good season there’s no need to secure a Young, Longterm RT via a day 2 draft pick.  That is the preferable route…. or Munford starting and taking the position.  But if neither of them Can be a high quality RT I think it’s worth investing draft capital in a RT.  I’d much rather spend a 2nd round pick and get a high quality RT for at minimum 4 years then sign a guy like McGlinchey to a mega deal.  Having 2 bookend OTs is incredibly important, especially with a young QB like O’Connell, who is on the lower tier of mobility, or whoever we draft next year.

I think with continued development O’Conell could be a starting QB in the league, albeit not a winning one.  He’s played well but has done so as someone else mentioned with some pretty decent WRs going up against practice squad CBs.  Guys we’re getting open.  
I’ll tell you why I think O’Connell will be a guy who can start but isn’t a franchise QB…. But I’m just going to leave it at that after, I don’t want to drag out a long debate where I have to take a negative/ pessimistic opinion:  O’Connell just doesn’t have high end arm talent.  He puts too much air on the ball on deep passes.  So I think OConnell can have success in this league but isn’t a franchise QB.  If people feel differently I’m glad they have the optimism and hope they enjoy it

[big_palooka]

9 hours ago, Humble_Beast said:

AOC has been solid. I’m fine with him as QB2 but I don’t view him as QB of the future… have to remember McDaniels coaching preseason like it’s the playoffs lol 

The offense has been vanilla as possible. What are you even talking about? 

[101Raider]

3 hours ago, big_palooka said:

The offense has been vanilla as possible. What are you even talking about? 

I agree. 
 

Obviously I’d rather see AOC doing well than struggling right now. However, actual managing a complex offensive system during the season against defensive starters not playing basic defensive schemes are completely different things. 
 

Let’s be thankful that we can have some positive optimism, but let’s not simple anoint him as some sort of savior until he’s gotten some real experience under him.

[Humble_Beast]

4 hours ago, big_palooka said:

The offense has been vanilla as possible. What are you even talking about? 

you are delusional 

[bucksavage1]

1 hour ago, 101Raider said:

I agree. 
 

Obviously I’d rather see AOC doing well than struggling right now. However, actual managing a complex offensive system during the season against defensive starters not playing basic defensive schemes are completely different things. 
 

Let’s be thankful that we can have some positive optimism, but let’s not simple anoint him as some sort of savior until he’s gotten some real experience under him.

True but this is all we have to go off of at the moment.

He was impressive in OTAs. People said wait until TC. He was impressive TC, then wait until he goes up against another team. The cycle continues.

Now he’s impressive during Preseason action now people say wait until he plays during the regular season. That’s fine but we have to be excited of his progress. There’s been a long list of mid/late round QBs who was cheeks in preseason 

At least we know O’Connell is capable 

[true2form]

2 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

True but this is all we have to go off of at the moment.

He was impressive in OTAs. People said wait until TC. He was impressive TC, then wait until he goes up against another team. The cycle continues.

Now he’s impressive during Preseason action now people say wait until he plays during the regular season. That’s fine but we have to be excited of his progress. There’s been a long list of mid/late round QBs who was cheeks in preseason 

At least we know O’Connell is capable 

It's ok to be excited. Here's a good analogy though.  You started dating someone. 

Some are saying this is the one, oh my god they're amazing, we are going to get married and have kids.

Myself and others are saying, play it cool, we've only been out on a few dates.

[big_palooka]

16 minutes ago, true2form said:

It's ok to be excited. Here's a good analogy though.  You started dating someone. 

Some are saying this is the one, oh my god they're amazing, we are going to get married and have kids.

Myself and others are saying, play it cool, we've only been out on a few dates.

And some of us are still madly in love with our ex who moved to Louisiana. 

 

Not directed at you.... you just set up a good opportunity I couldn't resist.

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

True but this is all we have to go off of at the moment.

He was impressive in OTAs. People said wait until TC. He was impressive TC, then wait until he goes up against another team. The cycle continues.

Now he’s impressive during Preseason action now people say wait until he plays during the regular season. That’s fine but we have to be excited of his progress. There’s been a long list of mid/late round QBs who was cheeks in preseason 

At least we know O’Connell is capable 

This is all I could justifiably ask of him, and imo, he's exceeding that. 

He's not playing like his peers. He's not playing like a rookie at all really. Is he all of a sudden a top 15 QB? Nobody is saying that, but if our QB2 is the QB20-something in the NFL, that's excellent. 

The talent level of opposition has been lower, yes, but the same can be said for a ton of QBs out there right now playing. O'Connell hasn't just looked like one of the best rookie QBs of the preseason, he's looked like one of the best QBs on the field period. More established and seasoned backups haven't played as well. Some starters haven't played as well. 

If we have a rookie Day 3 QB2 that establishes a floor in the top 30-35 QBs across the entire league, that's worth getting excited about. The way he's playing, he's arguably exceeding even that, and will possibly establish a rookie floor somewhere in the mid-high 20's, ahead of some teams' starters. What's not to get a bit excited about during preseason at the very least? It's fun to imagine if he improves as the year goes on into 2024, he could wind up as a QB in the top 1/2 or so of the league if not higher. And either way, he's exceeding his draft position, which is exciting in its own right. 

It may be a bit cliche, but people often downplay preseason stuff too harshly. No rookie steps onto the field day 1 and is considered a top 20 or better QB. None. Not really, except for people who buy into name value hype. Later drafted guys like Jimmy, Russell Wilson, Kirk Cousins, Jalen Hurts, Dak Prescott, among others, were all once in O'Connell's shoes and all would have justifiable buzz considering none of them were drafted to start day 1 and would've been ranked somewhere in the 30's or even 40's in the league to start the preseason. Why should Raiders fans not enjoy having one of our own generate a similar buzz?

It's infinitely better than trotting out McGloin or Peterman as our backup and constantly worrying about a surprise good season being derailed by a QB missing a couple of games. 

Maybe O'Connell is a fluke and the next Connor Cook or Christian Hackenberg instead of the next Kirk Cousins or Jimmy G. But that's TBD. In the meantime, there's no need to down the guy other than unnecessary pessimism.