I thought for sure C.J Stroud was going to go first.

[Xenos]

4 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Yeah I read that one - great read, great story. Stroud does seem to be mature beyond his years.

(I once said the exact same thing about that Browns QB too once I heard the story of his life and his upbringing...)

Got to have hope until proven otherwise. Cue Christopher Nolan monologue 😅

[iknowcool]

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Correct, I'm not really saying they did - I just remember public perception being that Stroud scored in the 18th percentile, ergo it's a red flag. 

Now, before you go "who cares what people thought back in April, that doesn't matter anymore..." I'm just bringing this up as a function to the draft itself. The S2 isn't going anywhere, just like how they 40 yard dash and the bench press aren't going anywhere. Is there value to it, or is Stroud the example to throw it away as a metric? 

I view it as the same as everything else in the process. Something to be considered. I don’t think it should be thrown away because of one outlier and vice versa. At the end of the day, when it comes to QB, you should just trust what you see in games. Especially since none of us (likely) will ever be able to interview these guys. 

I was always big on Stroud and at the start of the process I leaned towards him for us (although the more I watched the more I started to favor BY due to his playmaking) so for me the S2 meant nothing at all.  But if teams find some kind of value in it then I don’t think it should be dismissed despite how good Stroud is. 

[ET80]

5 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

I view it as the same as everything else in the process. Something to be considered. I don’t think it should be thrown away because of one outlier and vice versa. At the end of the day, when it comes to QB, you should just trust what you see in games. Especially since none of us (likely) will ever be able to interview these guys. 

I was always big on Stroud and at the start of the process I leaned towards him for us (although the more I watched the more I started to favor BY due to his playmaking) so for me the S2 meant nothing at all.  But if teams find some kind of value in it then I don’t think it should be dismissed despite how good Stroud is. 

Fair take - and I do think there's some validity to it when looking at "reactionary" positions such as DB or LB, where you have an assignment and suddenly the ball is heading away from your assignment, but in a spot where you can hustle and make a play (if that makes sense).

I'd be curious for the scores of guys like Luke Keuchly or Patrick Willis - tremendous players who had "instinct" that made it seem like they were in the offensive huddle. I think someone could correlate those sort of instinctive defenders to higher than average scores.

[notthatbluestuff]

[AkronsWitness]

4 hours ago, ET80 said:

Yeah I read that one - great read, great story. Stroud does seem to be mature beyond his years.

(I once said the exact same thing about that Browns QB too once I heard the story of his life and his upbringing...)

I don't see what Cody Kessler has to do with this 

[Calamity_Cometh]

I just hope this one doesn't have some kind of deviant behavior like the last Texans prodigy did.

[AkronsWitness]

Oh oh oh....oh....my

 

 

[ET80]

That's um... that's quite the company to be in.

Wow. 

[candyman93]

Am I the only one who thinks CJ is an elite talent AND thinks Bryce will be okay?

 

Bryce has to just keep mentally improving every game and he will be fine.

[SaveOurSonics]

On 11/10/2023 at 3:50 PM, Soko said:

Ekwonu sucks. He’s not even playing as well as Fant, let alone Tunsil. Like, this is not just wrong, but also a bad attempt at passing these two OLs as comparable. One is 19th in PBWR, the other is 8th. IIRC, PFF had Carolina’a OL ranked either last or bottom three. Houston’s was I believe in the teens. Fant’s playing good football. Mason’s playing solid football. Patterson was playing really good football. Tunsil is obviously Tunsil, and light years better than Ekwonu or anyone else on the Panthers OL. 

Not as familiar with how he's looked this season but I'm under the impression he was really good as a rookie? 

On 11/10/2023 at 3:50 PM, Soko said:

Adam Thielen is a WR that’s “put up big numbers recently”? In 2018, maybe. He had a couple heavy TD years, but 67 for 726 is big? Dude’s 33 years old and hasn’t been a threat in years. I’m not going to sit here and pimp Nico Collins, but what a joke it is trying to frame Thielen like he’s some veteran player who came to Carolina to die. Dude was washed when he got there as far as being a real WR1 or WR2.

You realize those stats are twice as good as Nico Collins single season high, ya? Put up big numbers relative to the conversation + was the #2 WR for a good offense as recently as last year. It's pretty clear he's still got it. I'm not calling the guy a Pro Bowler. Relax, put the pitchfork down, & think rationally. 

On 11/10/2023 at 3:50 PM, Soko said:

Who would you rather have as a HC - Reich or Ryans?

Frank Reich is a career .500 HC, even factoring in this year's 1-8 start. Demeco Ryans is a career .556 HC. While, yes, I certainly prefer Demeco, it's far too early to pose that as some rhetorical question. The only thing we know about Demeco Ryans is that he's fortunate enough to have one of the best rookie QBs we've seen in some time. 

 

On 11/10/2023 at 3:50 PM, Soko said:

God forbid we say that Stroud’s playing better and Houston’s a better team. Nope. Can’t do that. Stroud has to be doing the most with the least.

Didn't say the least. Just said they're a lot more comparable than the "it's hard to judge because Stroud's cast is SOO much better" crowd likes to believe. 

[Soko]

35 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Not as familiar with how he's looked this season but I'm under the impression he was really good as a rookie? 

He’s awful in pass protection this year. If draft status and age weren’t a part of things, he’d be a swing tackle on the Texans, tbh. Being outplayed by both tackles. Mason and Patterson (before injury) are both fine pieces. The Texans OL is outplaying the Panthers line. 

35 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

You realize those stats are twice as good as Nico Collins single season high, ya? Put up big numbers relative to the conversation + was the #2 WR for a good offense as recently as last year. It's pretty clear he's still got it. I'm not calling the guy a Pro Bowler. Relax, put the pitchfork down, & think rationally. 

With his QB Davis Mills? Did Nico Collins suddenly become significantly good (better) at catching the ball or running routes? Or is going from near league worst QB production to near top of the league in QB production a great way to inflate his numbers? I’m sure he did lots of improvement over the offseason to hone his craft, but way to completely blow over context here. You’re conflating production with skill. 

Mike Evans already has the same TD total and is on pace to have more yards with Baker Mayfield than he did last year with Tom Brady - does that mean Baker’s elevating him above what Brady did? Davante Adams is down in TDs, YPC, and yards per game - did he just stop being an elite receiver, or is his QB play hurting his production?

Stroud is undoubtedly boosting Texans’ player’s production (minus Pierce) because he’s a fantastic rookie and a significant upgrade over Davis Mills. 

Calling Thielen a guy who puts up “big numbers recently” is just wrong, unless your definition of “big” is a guy who produces like the 40th-60th most in production. He’s a 33 year old veteran receiver that most people would probably be cool with being a WR3/4. 

35 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Frank Reich is a career .500 HC, even factoring in this year's 1-8 start. Demeco Ryans is a career .556 HC. While, yes, I certainly prefer Demeco, it's far too early to pose that as some rhetorical question. The only thing we know about Demeco Ryans is that he's fortunate enough to have one of the best rookie QBs we've seen in some time. 
 

It’s not rhetorical. I’m asking you who you’d prefer. You said Ryans. So in one breath you’re trying to stack the deck against Stroud by saying he’s got this rookie coach vs this established veteran coach, and then in the other you’re saying you’d rather have the rookie coach because the other guy is proven mediocrity. 

35 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Didn't say the least. Just said they're a lot more comparable than the "it's hard to judge because Stroud's cast is SOO much better" crowd likes to believe. 

I mean - it is better, objectively. Stroud is also outplaying Young, objectively. Both things are true. 

If you mixed these two offenses, how many Panthers do you think would be starting, based on what we’ve seen? Pierce and Singletary over Hubbard. You’re not taking Dell off the field for Thielen. Or Collins. The entire Texans line would start, when healthy. Schultz would start at tight end. EDIT: They’d probably try Ekwonu at guard? I guess?

No, the Texans don’t have this absolutely loaded cast, but they’re solid and certainly better than what Carolina’s dealing with. 

Remaining objective here is probably the opposite of calling the Texans OL a bunch of guys + Tunsil, Adam Thielen putting up big numbers, or Ekwonu a great tackle. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by Soko

[iknowcool]

Thielen's numbers are great for fantasy, not so much as a #1 WR.  But someone has to get the ball in this offense.  His 86 targets lead the team by a crazy margin.  And he's only averaging 9.6 yards per reception, which is bad for a #2, much less a teams #1.  He's usually positioned in the slot, allowing for an easy pitch and catch.  In fact, it is for that reason he leads the NFL (at least heading into Week 10) in most catchable targets (source).  

Also keep in mind that we throw the ball the 2nd most in the NFL.  

I'm not saying this makes Thielen bad player.  It still takes skill to do the job he's done and he is Bryce's most reliable target.  But he is a bad #1 receiver.  

Quote

 was the #2 WR for a good offense as recently as last year.

Was he a good #2 though?  716 yards on 107 targets.  Would you consider that good production for the second receiver in a good offense?  Do you also consider Marquez Valdes-Scantling a good WR, who in 2022 put up similar numbers on far less volume than Thielen? And numbers aside, he was clearly on the downswing.  He wasn't all that athletic to begin with, so it was even more noticeable when he began to lose a step. There were a lot of people last year including Vikings fans who pointed out his inability to separate.  The Vikings were a good offense in spite of him, not because of him.  

Really though, is anyone watching Thielen and Collins play and coming away thinking they are the same level of player right now?  I just find that very hard to believe.  And it has nothing to do with trying to take away from CJ Stroud.  He looks phenomenal right now.  But Nico Collins has way more in his bag right now than Thielen.  He's better in almost every way.  Thielen has played in 1 more game, has 32 more receptions... and yet only 21 more yards than Nico.  

Edited November 14, 2023 by iknowcool

[iknowcool]

6 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Not as familiar with how he's looked this season but I'm under the impression he was really good as a rookie? 

He was solid as a rookie.  But he's clearly not a fit for this offense.  He's atrocious in pass protection, which you kind of saw signs of last year but was better protected by a power run game and simplified passing game, which fit Ikem's skill-set a lot more.  He's just awful right now though.  I haven't given up on him for good yet and it can take LTs time.  I remember Andrew Thomas struggled for a bit.  But like Thomas, it may require a coaching change.

[iknowcool]

6 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Didn't say the least. Just said they're a lot more comparable than the "it's hard to judge because Stroud's cast is SOO much better" crowd likes to believe. 

What crowd are you even talking about?  Who has said this?  I went back and skimmed through.  The first post in this thread that mentioned anything about Bryce's supporting cast vs Stroud's was this one 

Quote

In fairness to Bryce, he's got nothing to work with.  The offensive line is not very good and when washed up Adam Thielen is your best WR it makes it very hard to judge him.  Every single one of those QB's except Young have legitimate WR's to throw the ball to.

Said nothing about CJ Stroud and just was acknowledging the tough spot Bryce is in.  The next was this 

Quote

Let's not even begin to pretend Stroud is in the same position Young is in.  It was pretty easy to predict preseason that Carolina was going to be terrible and Houston would at least be somewhat competitive.  That said, Stroud has exceeded even the most optimistic expectations.  That can't be taken away from him.  

And then everything after that was just conversation about which group of receivers/OL is better.  

The only person in either thread who has suggested CJ Stroud would do worse here than Bryce or made an attempt to take away from CJ is Ozzy in the Bryce thread

Quote

If one put CJ Stroud on the Panthers with that offense and Bryce Young with WRs Nico Collins, Tank Dell, Robert Woods, Metchie and Schultz at TE I think Young would be doing better as well with those weapons.  

Keep in mind that post was on October 7th, who knows what his opinion is now.  And he's the only one who has done it.  So can we please stop trying to push this narrative that there is this crowd trying to take away from CJ Stroud?  Because it isn't true.  All anyone in this thread has said is that he has better players around him than Bryce does.  This does NOT mean that Stroud has a great supporting cast, or that Stroud isn't making his team player, or so on and so forth.

Edited November 14, 2023 by iknowcool

[ET80]

I actually think @Mox said the most apt statement on the subject:

On 11/6/2023 at 11:02 AM, Mox said:

The gap in production exceeds the gap in surrounding talent between the two. Nothing else needs to be said.

We can argue the differences in the supporting casts - but we're not talking a top 5 unit vs a bottom 3 unit. 

My argument is now centered on the "elevates supporting cast" debate - which is now an adjacent talking point in the CJ Stroud for MVP talks; Stroud doesn't have a Tyreek, a Ceedee, an AJ Brown or a Travis Kelce (which other MVP candidates have). His contemporaries in this MVP space do have those weapons.

So, what does it mean that Stroud can be in these discussions with the guys he has? Is Tank Dell one of the greatest steals at WR in draft history? Did Dallas really botch Noah Brown over his career?