I thought for sure C.J Stroud was going to go first.

[iknowcool]

9 minutes ago, ET80 said:

So, to summarize:

- Texans were the 30th ranked offense in 2022.

- Texans removed Brandin Cooks, Chris Moore, Rex Burkhead and Jordan Akins.

- Texans added Tank Dell, Robert Woods, Devin Singletary and Dalton Schultz

- Texans offense currently ranked 11th over eight games. 

Sound right? I mean, that's gotta be one of the greatest FA classes ever. 

Panthers offense was 32nd in 2010.  Far worse than the Texans offense you claim was in the argument for "worst in NFL history" (insane hyperbole by the way - '10 Panthers averaged 12.3 points, '22 Texans averaged 17; Texans offense was nowhere close to the worst ever and is another example of you trying too hard to put Stroud on a pedestal).  Jumped up to 5th in 2011 and averaged 25 PPG.  So an even bigger jump than the Texans.

Does that mean Cam Newton didn't have good players around him his rookie season?  Or maybe a bottom 3 QB can derail just about any team if he starts enough games?

And once again, not a single person in this thread hasn't given Stroud credit for helping improve the Texans.  Again it really feels like you are taking all this the wrong way.  Just because Collins, Dell, and Schultz are better than the Panthers guys doesn't mean anyone is saying Stroud isn't a big reason for the Texans getting better.  I think everyone knows that teams tend to only go as far as the QB.  

But yes, getting rid of JAGs like Chris Moore and Burkhead and replacing them with quality players like Dell, Woods, and Schultz has helped improve the team (Singletary is a JAG to me IMO).  I don't even see the argument there.

Edited November 10, 2023 by iknowcool

[ET80]

8 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Who has done that?  Nearly everyone in this thread has agreed CJ Stroud is better than Bryce Young.

...which is an overcorrection in itself. Nobody had Stroud over Young, Young was nearly universal QB1 leading up to the draft. 

Now that it's clearly a difference between that assumption and reality, it's either "I had Stroud the top guy from the beginning" or "oh hey, that 30th ranked Texans offense is clearly better than Carolina's offense..."

[Malfatron]

1 minute ago, ET80 said:

Nobody had Stroud over Young, Young was nearly universal QB1 leading up to the draft. 

I did.

[iknowcool]

12 minutes ago, ET80 said:

...which is an overcorrection in itself. Nobody had Stroud over Young, Young was nearly universal QB1 leading up to the draft. 

Now that it's clearly a difference between that assumption and reality, it's either "I had Stroud the top guy from the beginning" or "oh hey, that 30th ranked Texans offense is clearly better than Carolina's offense..."

So people's opinion can't change after watching them on the football field?  Why are you so insistent that people stick with opinions formed before the season, when you yourself don't even do that?

And yeah, Nico Collins, Tank Dell, and Dalton Schultz are better and have looked better than the Panthers WR1 (and this is only debatable because of how Thielen is used, but as a traditional #1 Nico outclasses him), WR2, and TE1 respectively.  And Texans OL has also been playing better than the Panthers.  I'm not sure why you keep saying it like it is some absurd take.  It isn't like the Panthers have been known for their offense the last 3 years and they got rid of their 2 best players to begin with (Moore and McCaffrey).

But I accept that this is just my opinion.  If you feel like I'm doing this because I'm "overcorrecting", then fair enough.  Neither of us is going to change the other's mind at this point.

Edited November 10, 2023 by iknowcool

[ET80]

26 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

So people's opinion can't change after watching them on the football field?  Why are you so insistent that people stick with opinions formed before the season?

I'm just asking people to own it:

46 minutes ago, ET80 said:

The reason I share this is because this is something I've observed in my 20+ yards of moderating this forum:

When people are wrong, they'll overcorrect their position as opposed to owning it.

Say "I was wrong..." instead of "oh, I knew this WHOLE time..." is all I'm looking for. Heck, I had Young ahead of Stroud from wire to wire during the draft season. I've been pretty forthcoming on that (but I guess it's easier for me because I'm reaping the benefits as a Texans fan).

Is that too much to ask? Is accountability to previous positions (even if they were incorrect) some great assault on everyones' honor? Is being wrong on a football message board going to impact your credit or prevent you from getting a job? Just own that you didn't get it right at first, then move on.

[ET80]

Here's an example of a rather handsome devil owning it:

On 9/19/2023 at 2:55 AM, ET80 said:

Thought Bryce was going to be better. Glad I’m wrong so far. Hope it continues to be the case.

Every single Mod on this forum will tell you our job is to set the example for other posters, this is why Webby wants us to do. Here I am doing it.

If people can own up to it instead of doubling down by bringing in supporting casts and "he just needs weapons" (which was another point of contention, but we've beaten that horse and all its lil fillies to death) I'll be content in particular discussion. I'm an old guy so I'll just come out and say it - there's an issue with accountability in general nowadays. This is a benign enough topic to where this can be said without really going after someone's beliefs. 

@SaveOurSonics hit the nail on the head - these people spouting this weren't anywhere to be seen in the Spring. You can change your opinion on a go forward basis - but you can't change what you thought in the past.

[Dr A W Niloc]

1 hour ago, ET80 said:

Young was nearly universal QB1 leading up to the draft.

     Correct, and a one-man-band QB is what Carolina were seeking.  Everyone knew the new Panther pivot would be archiemanninged during his first few years, at least.  (We may never be in a position to judge Young's talent.)  To be clear, the mistake wasn't Young;  it was trading away their draft capital to take any QB prematurely.

     Meanwhile, no one said that Bryce was the better passer.  Were we casting for the role of Dan Marino the votes for Stroud would have been unanimous.

     There is no question that Nico Collins has ballooned with Stroud at the helm.  To be fair, though, Bryce Young has helped revive the career of Adam Thielen, who was regarded as washed up coming into 2023.  The big difference is that, in sharp contrast to Stroud, Young hasn't helped the secondary receivers.

Edited November 10, 2023 by Dr A W Niloc

[fluhartz]

2 hours ago, Malfatron said:

I did.

me too

[SaveOurSonics]

20 hours ago, ET80 said:

On the analytics front? He's a terror, at or near the top of all the advanced stats (pass rush win rate, beating double teams, run stuffs, etc).

Tangible numbers? They're not showing up. He's got two sacks on the year (including a phantom sack vs the Bucs - nobody can seemingly recall it). I do think the attention he's drawing is blowing open the doors for Jon Greenard to finish up sacks, he's got six on the year.

As a side note - Anderson will routinely murder people on the field like this:

Poor #69. 

I always felt a big portion of his value would be intangible. The type of leader & enforcer he can be for a defense is tough to measure. 

[ET80]

22 minutes ago, SaveOurSonics said:

I always felt a big portion of his value would be intangible. The type of leader & enforcer he can be for a defense is tough to measure. 

This entire draft class was needed for intangibles - most of these guys were team captains, leaders, etc. There's been a void in Houston since the 2021 exodus following the Jack Easterby era, and these guys were brought in for that purpose.

Demeco Ryans coined the term SWARM - Special Work ethic And Relentless Mindset - and that was more or less the flavor for everyone brought in. It's manifested in the locker room, but it's really surprising to see it manifest in games.

[notthatbluestuff]

5 hours ago, iknowcool said:

So people's opinion can't change after watching them on the football field?  Why are you so insistent that people stick with opinions formed before the season, when you yourself don't even do that?

And yeah, Nico Collins, Tank Dell, and Dalton Schultz are better and have looked better than the Panthers WR1 (and this is only debatable because of how Thielen is used, but as a traditional #1 Nico outclasses him), WR2, and TE1 respectively.  And Texans OL has also been playing better than the Panthers.  I'm not sure why you keep saying it like it is some absurd take.  It isn't like the Panthers have been known for their offense the last 3 years and they got rid of their 2 best players to begin with (Moore and McCaffrey).

But I accept that this is just my opinion.  If you feel like I'm doing this because I'm "overcorrecting", then fair enough.  Neither of us is going to change the other's mind at this point.

I think ET is more objecting to the people who are like "well of course Stroud is succeeding, just look at the situation he's in compared to Young! It was easy to predict that these Texans would be competitive. Why, I had Houston among the best and deepest OL in the league all along!" 

And there have been people making such claims.

[SaveOurSonics]

2 hours ago, notthatbluestuff said:

I think ET is more objecting to the people who are like "well of course Stroud is succeeding, just look at the situation he's in compared to Young! It was easy to predict that these Texans would be competitive. Why, I had Houston among the best and deepest OL in the league all along!" 

And there have been people making such claims.

Which is funny because....

Stroud: 
* Great LT, mediocre OL thereafter 
* WR1 was a mediocre #2 in years prior, his WR2 is a top 80 rookie selection
* He's supported by a bottom 10 rush offense
* He has a 1st time HC transitioning from DC & a 1st time OC guiding him 
* He plays on quite literally the worst team in his conference from a year ago (should be worst in league) 

Young: 
* Great LT, mediocre OL thereafter 
* WR1 is a proven veteran that's put up big numbers recently, his WR2 is a top 40 rookie selection  
* He's supported by a bottom 10 rush offense 
* He has a veteran HC who is heralded for his work with QBs guiding him 
* He plays on a team that wasn't even the worst in their division a season ago

 

Who really has the better situation here? It's so easy to say Stroud now, but look at it objectively. 

[Soko]

5 hours ago, SaveOurSonics said:

Stroud: 
* Great LT, mediocre OL thereafter 
* WR1 was a mediocre #2 in years prior, his WR2 is a top 80 rookie selection
* He's supported by a bottom 10 rush offense
* He has a 1st time HC transitioning from DC & a 1st time OC guiding him 
* He plays on quite literally the worst team in his conference from a year ago (should be worst in league) 

Young: 
* Great LT, mediocre OL thereafter 
* WR1 is a proven veteran that's put up big numbers recently, his WR2 is a top 40 rookie selection  
* He's supported by a bottom 10 rush offense 
* He has a veteran HC who is heralded for his work with QBs guiding him 
* He plays on a team that wasn't even the worst in their division a season ago

 

Who really has the better situation here? It's so easy to say Stroud now, but look at it objectively. 

Frame job and a half here.

Ekwonu sucks. He’s not even playing as well as Fant, let alone Tunsil. Like, this is not just wrong, but also a bad attempt at passing these two OLs as comparable. One is 19th in PBWR, the other is 8th. IIRC, PFF had Carolina’a OL ranked either last or bottom three. Houston’s was I believe in the teens. Fant’s playing good football. Mason’s playing solid football. Patterson was playing really good football. Tunsil is obviously Tunsil, and light years better than Ekwonu or anyone else on the Panthers OL. 

Adam Thielen is a WR that’s “put up big numbers recently”? In 2018, maybe. He had a couple heavy TD years, but 67 for 726 is big? Dude’s 33 years old and hasn’t been a threat in years. I’m not going to sit here and pimp Nico Collins, but what a joke it is trying to frame Thielen like he’s some veteran player who came to Carolina to die. Dude was washed when he got there as far as being a real WR1 or WR2.

Who would you rather have as a HC - Reich or Ryans? 

Cutting down one guy/position/coach to pimp another isn’t uncommon at all, especially on FF, but JFC. What a joke. God forbid we say that Stroud’s playing better and Houston’s a better team. Nope. Can’t do that. Stroud has to be doing the most with the least. 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Soko

[INbengalfan]

11 hours ago, iknowcool said:

Nobody disagrees that QBs make their team better.  But you still need talent around the QB.  Nobody says the Bengals receivers are only good because they have Joe Burrow.  Nobody says the Jags receivers are only good because they have Trevor Lawrence.  Nobody says Mark Andrews is only good because he has Lamar Jackson.

Why are Mahomes' numbers at a career-low across the board?  Because his receivers stink.  His numbers aren't even as good as Stroud's, and yet nobody would suggest Stroud is better at elevating his offense than Mahomes.  There is only so far you can elevate if the system, players, coaching, etc. ain't right.  And we have seen that time and time again.  Otherwise, why even draft WRs in the 1st or signing them to big deals if it was as simple as the QB being able to make any JAG looked good.

So in the end, semantics.  QBs can only be as good as their supporting cast allows.

 

Suffice to say, I disagree, and we will have to agree to disagree.  Burrow has changed an entire organization from the top down, on the field and to a degree, off of it. Stroud has helped revive a team that was one failed 2 point conversion away from the #1 overall pick and finds itself now in the playoff chase.  The offense went from anemic to respectable.  I guess I see Stroud as having a bigger hand in that that you do.

[tab]

 I was just curious about comparing the OL between houston and carolina, looking at Pro Football Reference, based on 8 games https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2023/passing_advanced.htm



edit: I mixed up the attemp/compl for stroud, my b

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by tab