I thought for sure C.J Stroud was going to go first.

[notthatbluestuff]

15 hours ago, AkronsWitness said:

Oh oh oh....oh....my

 

 

And he performed as well as he did in this game without the great Nico Collins.

[iknowcool]

30 minutes ago, ET80 said:

Is Tank Dell one of the greatest steals at WR in draft history? 

Let's ignore CJ Stroud/Bryce Young side of this.  No more talk about supporting casts, at least between us.

Are you not sold on Tank Dell being a legitimate WR on the rise?  Because this comment feels very tongue-in-cheek.  From what you've said in this thread it doesn't seem like you are very high on him.  You watch more of him than I do, so what aren't you seeing?  I feel like he flashes every time I've watched the Texans play.  Stroud of course has been great, but Dell moves great, gets open and despite his size seems tough enough to work the entire field.  IIRC he had a deep play in the Panthers game that they barely missed on.  Do you not think he's as good as he's appeared to be?

Besides, finding great receivers past the 2nd round isn't rare at all.  Tyreek went 5th.  AJ went mid-2nd.  Kelce went 3rd.  Amon-Ra went 5th.  McClaurin went 3rd.  Keenan went 3rd.  Kupp went 3rd. Diggs went 5th.  Puka looks even better than Dell and went 5th, so not even the best WR steal in his class (and probably not in his own round with the way Achane looked this year).  Nowadays a talented receiver can and usually does make an impact early. 

Edited November 14, 2023 by iknowcool

[iknowcool]

20 minutes ago, notthatbluestuff said:

And he performed as well as he did in this game without the great Nico Collins.

Yeah, because calling Nico Collins better than Adam Thielen must mean we think Collins is great.  

[notthatbluestuff]

1 minute ago, iknowcool said:

Yeah, because calling Nico Collins better than Adam Thielen must mean we think Collins is great.  

You misunderstand - Collins has been his best receiver this year, yes? I'm praising Stroud, not sure why you feel targeted.

[ET80]

39 minutes ago, iknowcool said:

Are you not sold on Tank Dell being a legitimate WR on the rise?

We'll make this short - I do think Tank Dell is a very good WR.

But - for reference:

Do I think he's as good as young Andre Johnson or *better* than young Deandre Hopkins? No. I think he's a fine WR, but his production this early is on pace with two highly elite WRs (two likely Hall of Fame WRs, if we're being honest).

THIS is my point when I talk about Stroud elevating his supporting cast. Andre Johnson did this with David Carr as his QB. Deandre Hopkins did this with Matt Schaub as his QB (or was this Case Keenum? Or TJ Yates? I dunno, 2013 was a mess). How does Tank do with those types of QBs at his disposal? How do 'Dre/Nuk do with a guy like Stroud as their QB? I've seen great WRs produce with shoddy QB play. I'd argue I've seen more WRs elevate QBs than most, just on the virtue of the 19 years these two put in as Texans. 

This, going on right now? It isn't the same thing. 

[NYRaider]

CJ Stroud is so goated

[SmittyBacall]

CJ Stroud is the closest thing to Joe Burrow I’ve seen. The touch, the anticipation, the accuracy, the ability off script, the sneaky rush ability. He’s really, really, impressive.

Texans have a winner.

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Texans will send Lovie a Christmas card for his attempt at going rogue. 

 

[43M]

Big deal.    He aint all that.  

Strip away his ability to read defenses, his great arm strength, his anticipation, his fearlessness and confidence in his abilities, and his adult male sized hands, and all youre left with is Kenny Pickett.

[Forge]

 

[ET80]

42 minutes ago, Forge said:

 

It's about time the Texans got some dumb luck on their end. Since that playoff game vs KC, it's been 100% dumb, 0% luck.

[notthatbluestuff]

Quote

“It’s been cool to be able to be in the [MVP] talk, but just like they love me this week, they’ll hate me the next,” Stroud said.

https://www.nbcsports.com/nfl/profootballtalk/rumor-mill/news/c-j-stroud-on-mvp-chatter-just-like-they-love-me-this-week-theyll-hate-me-the-next

I'm not much of a CFB fan, but I'm guessing he's remembering what it was like at Ohio State.

[lavar703]

I'm happy for Stroud. He just seems like such a good dude and he had past OSU QB failures held against him unfairly. Now give the Texans back their rightful Oilers name and uniforms. The Titans holding it hostage is just stupid. 

[SaveOurSonics]

On 11/14/2023 at 1:25 AM, Soko said:

With his QB Davis Mills? Did Nico Collins suddenly become significantly good (better) at catching the ball or running routes? Or is going from near league worst QB production to near top of the league in QB production a great way to inflate his numbers? I’m sure he did lots of improvement over the offseason to hone his craft, but way to completely blow over context here. You’re conflating production with skill. 

Mike Evans already has the same TD total and is on pace to have more yards with Baker Mayfield than he did last year with Tom Brady - does that mean Baker’s elevating him above what Brady did? Davante Adams is down in TDs, YPC, and yards per game - did he just stop being an elite receiver, or is his QB play hurting his production?

Stroud is undoubtedly boosting Texans’ player’s production (minus Pierce) because he’s a fantastic rookie and a significant upgrade over Davis Mills. 

Calling Thielen a guy who puts up “big numbers recently” is just wrong, unless your definition of “big” is a guy who produces like the 40th-60th most in production. He’s a 33 year old veteran receiver that most people would probably be cool with being a WR3/4. 

Has Nico gotten better? Perhaps. Is CJ Stroud also making Tank Dell, Noah Brown, & Dalton Schultz look great? Yes he is. So who's to say which outweighs the other? I'm certainly siding with the 1st round rookie QB elevating the 3rd year 3rd round WR who had never topped 40 receptions in a season over the alternative. 

I can't tell if you're intentionally ignoring what I'm saying on the Thielen front, but I clarified big numbers recently, relative to the rest of the players in question. Thielen was relegated to option #3 on the team last season but has clearly shown he still has, at the very least, solid #2 target play left in him. He is the lone producer on an otherwise sad offense. 

On 11/14/2023 at 1:25 AM, Soko said:

It’s not rhetorical. I’m asking you who you’d prefer. You said Ryans. So in one breath you’re trying to stack the deck against Stroud by saying he’s got this rookie coach vs this established veteran coach, and then in the other you’re saying you’d rather have the rookie coach because the other guy is proven mediocrity. 

The question was (intentionally?) leading the witness astray. My point was never who was the better HC. My point was who is the better QB developer. Reich has a history. The Texans staff does not (to that extent). That is the distinction. 

On 11/14/2023 at 1:25 AM, Soko said:

If you mixed these two offenses, how many Panthers do you think would be starting, based on what we’ve seen? Pierce and Singletary over Hubbard. You’re not taking Dell off the field for Thielen. Or Collins. The entire Texans line would start, when healthy. Schultz would start at tight end. EDIT: They’d probably try Ekwonu at guard? I guess?

No, the Texans don’t have this absolutely loaded cast, but they’re solid and certainly better than what Carolina’s dealing with. 

This is nit-picking at this point, but I'm not convinced Pierce or Singletary are better than Chuba. If they are, it's marginal. Coming into the season, you'd likely rank Sanders & Pierce in the same tier (though I realize Sanders has been bad, but again, that's also partially a condition of environment). 

You say Tank over Thielen as if Tank didn't require an injury to a similar veteran WR2 in Robert Woods to actually get his chance. If you put Thielen on this Texans team, I think there is a strong argument I remains the target/receptions leader for that team, due to his veteran savvy & feel for zones (primarily). To automatically assume he gets supplanted by a 3rd year underachiever & another 3rd year rookie is a reach, considering he's already taken over WR1 on a team with a top 40 rookie, a 3rd year underachiever (Marshall), and another decent veteran (Chark). 

 

Whoever said that it's a balancing act between supporting cast & QB elevating talent is correct. It's not black & white. I never meant to insinuate it was. My only point is that the supporting casts are only marginally different, & not enough of a gap to declare that Stroud is far better off. The Texans were literally projected for a top 2 pick entering the season. 

[Tank4Drake]

There was a feature in Madden PS1 days (yeah im old) called “Mulligan”. Let’s you undo a play. I’m sure the Panthers would like to use a Mulligan and draft Stroud.