Let's talk Bryce Young

[Soggust]

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

I appreciate the post. I apologize for being snarky and my sharp elbows in my responses. Looks like we're talking past each other. Two final points:

Ugh, don't be all reasonable. Now I feel like a dbag for my responses.

 

2 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

1. We have very different perspectives on what constitutes a bust. I don't consider a three-time Pro Bowler (at 29) like Goff to be a bust.

It's a really hard argument to be fair, bc I've been a Goff white knighter for a bit, especially with his 2016 + 2017, so I don't want to have to prosecute an innocent man here, but I was definitely trying to sell that the Rams didn't believe this, considering they felt the need to trade him away.

The problem is - you are a Rams fan, so while I would have probably gone down this path normally, I know I'm going to get schooled by someone more educated on this, so I've been avoiding it tbh under the guise of keeping us on topic.

 

4 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

Nor do I see Trevor Lawrence as a bust. Hell, Lawrence isn't even in his prime yet. QB progress isn't linear. For all we know, he comes back next year and posts a top 5 season. As for Goff, he is in his prime and is playing quality football.

I think bust to this point, but certainly not necessarily a bust in perpetuity. That was kind of my point. We aren't hoping Bryce becomes Trevor, we are hoping he becomes what we hope Trevor becomes lol.

Or to be fair to you and all of the Jags fans that are about to destroy me - we are hoping he becomes second half 2022 Trevor.

 

5 minutes ago, jrry32 said:

2. One of our disconnects is I'm not talking about hopes I have no doubt that Panthers fans hope Bryce Young turns into the next Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers. I'm simply thinking about what does turning things around look like for Young. And yes, I think Goff or Lawrence have provided acceptable play from a #1 pick. It seems clear at this point you and I don't agree on that.

Again - 100% no sarcasm here - Totally agree.

I disagree with your perspective on 1.1 value, but I understand it and I think it's a fair take.

Cheers.

[Forge]

People don't expect that the first overall pick in the draft is going to end up as Jared Goff, but I think that's probably an expectation problem more than anything. Goff's career has kind of been right around the middle of the pack when a QB goes #1, even though we have much higher hopes for them. Looking at the last 20 years or so of number one picks...I'd say Goff is probably on the lower end of the average tier if we are being honest. 

Going back to Michael Vick, there have been 17 Qbs taken #1. Now, some of these guys, obviously they aren't even through their rookie deal yet so the sample size is much smaller, but I'll need to include them. 

There are some guys who probably are in the same tier as Goff, and you can have a preference on stacking within that tier. 

Worse than Goff: 

• Carr 
• Russell
• Bradford
• Winston
• Mayfield
• Smith
• I'm going to include Lawrence in here right now. I'd probably have them in the same tier right, and I get that he's still a favorite of the tape guys for what he's actually on the field doing, but at some point it has to yield results on the field consistently. It hasn't yet. That's okay. He's 5 years younger than Goff so there is plenty of time to make that switch. 
• Young

I think you can make a pretty strong case that Goff and Kyler are on equal footing. I'm not going to argue too strongly for either. I do like Kyler's floor a little more because I think he's more independent when being able to do some of the stuff he does, but there are some limitations in scheme imo and I think its always fair to wonder about the non football stuff in terms of attitude, study, etc. I'm not there, so I can't comment for sure, but I think it's fair to wonder. 

A guy like Palmer I think was a better player and was probably a little underrated. Eli had the better career and even though we look at Eli and don't always think about what an amazing talent he was, there were definitely big moments where he really rose to the occasion. 

Luck is kind of a weird one where he's clearly more talented than Goff imo, but 6 year career. I'd put him in the better bucket, but there's definitely an * attached. 

Vick, Cam, Stafford, Burrow don't really require much commentary. 

[adamq]

3 hours ago, Forge said:

Worse than Goff

I would agree with all of these. Goff was seen as a total bust, just a product of Sean McVay when that trade was done, but I think he has proven to at least be an above average NFL starter

[Towerbridge]

Goff also has prototypical QB size. Bryce not so much. 

[General Tso]

23 hours ago, Towerbridge said:

Goff also has prototypical QB size. Bryce not so much. 

Counterargument: Goff has feet of stone but Bryce can extend plays.

[RaidersAreOne]

Omg the package they gave up for Young looks even worse now. 

[ukjets21]

On 1/3/2024 at 1:30 AM, Forge said:

People don't expect that the first overall pick in the draft is going to end up as Jared Goff, but I think that's probably an expectation problem more than anything. Goff's career has kind of been right around the middle of the pack when a QB goes #1, even though we have much higher hopes for them. Looking at the last 20 years or so of number one picks...I'd say Goff is probably on the lower end of the average tier if we are being honest. 

Going back to Michael Vick, there have been 17 Qbs taken #1. Now, some of these guys, obviously they aren't even through their rookie deal yet so the sample size is much smaller, but I'll need to include them. 

There are some guys who probably are in the same tier as Goff, and you can have a preference on stacking within that tier. 

Worse than Goff: 

• Carr 
• Russell
• Bradford
• Winston
• Mayfield
• Smith
• I'm going to include Lawrence in here right now. I'd probably have them in the same tier right, and I get that he's still a favorite of the tape guys for what he's actually on the field doing, but at some point it has to yield results on the field consistently. It hasn't yet. That's okay. He's 5 years younger than Goff so there is plenty of time to make that switch. 
• Young

I think you can make a pretty strong case that Goff and Kyler are on equal footing. I'm not going to argue too strongly for either. I do like Kyler's floor a little more because I think he's more independent when being able to do some of the stuff he does, but there are some limitations in scheme imo and I think its always fair to wonder about the non football stuff in terms of attitude, study, etc. I'm not there, so I can't comment for sure, but I think it's fair to wonder. 

A guy like Palmer I think was a better player and was probably a little underrated. Eli had the better career and even though we look at Eli and don't always think about what an amazing talent he was, there were definitely big moments where he really rose to the occasion. 

Luck is kind of a weird one where he's clearly more talented than Goff imo, but 6 year career. I'd put him in the better bucket, but there's definitely an * attached. 

Vick, Cam, Stafford, Burrow don't really require much commentary. 

Carson Palmer is comfortably better than Goff (and Eli)  in my opinion but the others are almost spot on.

[RaidersAreOne]

https://x.com/nickcarboniwcnc/status/1744107822516772925?s=46&t=rfjQOnFxN5Y5dbOW6S1nog

[AkronsWitness]

15 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

https://x.com/nickcarboniwcnc/status/1744107822516772925?s=46&t=rfjQOnFxN5Y5dbOW6S1nog

 

Edited January 8 by AkronsWitness

[ET80]

20 minutes ago, RaidersAreOne said:

https://x.com/nickcarboniwcnc/status/1744107822516772925?s=46&t=rfjQOnFxN5Y5dbOW6S1nog

62 sacks, goodness.

[ronjon1990]

2 minutes ago, ET80 said:

62 sacks, goodness.

Add another 15 for the sacks that happened and didn't count as we couldn't actually see the little fella amongst the grown men playing football. 

Edited January 8 by ronjon1990

[ET80]

3 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

5 minutes ago, ET80 said:

62 sacks, goodness.

Add another 15 for the sacks that happened and didn't count as we couldn't actually see the little fella amongst the grown men playing football. 

I don't know who is going to take this job, but whoever does - one of the first orders of business is to call Ikem Ekwonu up and find out what the hell happened. 

I know not all 62 are on him... but enough of those 62 are on him. As a former top 10 selection, he needs to wear the weight of this failure and rally the other OL to a committed improvement. 

A rookie QB needs his OL playing beyond their pay grade - a 5' 8" rookie QB needs his OL playing elite football. That didn't happen and you have to call that out ASAP.

[RaidersAreOne]

47 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

 

That is going to set the Panthers back a decade.

[lavar703]

44 minutes ago, AkronsWitness said:

 

I'm sorry but this revisionist history stuff is so stupid. People were killing Lovie Smith for winning that game and losing out on Bryce Young and now that Stroud has been better the Panthers should've known better and picked the guy 90% of draftniks didn't think was as good as Young? This is no different than what happened with Tua and Herbert and how the Dolphins should've known Herbert would be better and yadda yadda yadda. Pretending Young wasn't a supremely talented QB in college and pretty much universally seen as the first overall pick for that entire college season because of how things have transpired is quite annoying. 

[NateDawg]

It’s stupid that anyone saw him as a better quarterback than Stroud. You can watch them for five minutes and see that these are two totally different players. It’s insane they made that trade and did not take CJ. Only thing I can think is ownership meddling. There’s no way a real evaluator thought that was a good decision.