Week 11 GDT: Raiders (5-5) @ Dolphins (6-3) - Who's hungry for sashimi?

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, Justwinning said:

How do you even know this?

Track record. Look it up sometime. He's been part of some atrocious draft decision teams. 

Or....is this like with Josh McDaniels where we're supposed to ignore the track record because someone said something nice about him and hyped him up for no reason? 

You wanna ignore his track record, go ahead. But riddle me this- what the actual **** has he ever done in his career to warrant being given our GM role? Please, do list off his long list of great accomplishments. I'll wait. 

[Jeremy408]

8 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Track record. Look it up sometime. He's been part of some atrocious draft decision teams. 

Or....is this like with Josh McDaniels where we're supposed to ignore the track record because someone said something nice about him and hyped him up for no reason? 

You wanna ignore his track record, go ahead. But riddle me this- what the actual **** has he ever done in his career to warrant being given our GM role? Please, do list off his long list of great accomplishments. I'll wait. 

He's highly respected and highly sought after 😂😂😂 the stuff you can't actually quantify lol

Edited November 15, 2023 by Jeremy408

[Justwinning]

1 hour ago, ronjon1990 said:

Track record. Look it up sometime. He's been part of some atrocious draft decision teams. 

Or....is this like with Josh McDaniels where we're supposed to ignore the track record because someone said something nice about him and hyped him up for no reason? 

You wanna ignore his track record, go ahead. But riddle me this- what the actual **** has he ever done in his career to warrant being given our GM role? Please, do list off his long list of great accomplishments. I'll wait. 

He literally made Mac Jones look competent the year before. Prior to that, he was able to reconstruct an offense for Cam Newton, which showed me he was willing to adapt, but Cam was just shot. I wasn’t a huge fan of the hire, but was willing to give him a shot. People change. We have seen first time head coaches fail and then thrive in their second act.  Obviously he didn’t change which led to him being a disaster. Cool confirmation bias bro 👍🏽 

As for Kelly, front office people are harder to judge because nobody outside of NFL circles knows who’s doing what in each front office. So how the hell would you know anything about Kelly’s decision-making abilities? 

 

[Styrian Raider]

7 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Track record. Look it up sometime. He's been part of some atrocious draft decision teams. 

Or....is this like with Josh McDaniels where we're supposed to ignore the track record because someone said something nice about him and hyped him up for no reason? 

You wanna ignore his track record, go ahead. But riddle me this- what the actual **** has he ever done in his career to warrant being given our GM role? Please, do list off his long list of great accomplishments. I'll wait. 

You can say that JMD's track record as HC was bad, and that's why you doubt that he is a good HC. Guys like me who thought he changed in 10 years, were wrong. You, among others, won that discussion.

But to me there is no way that you can judge Champ Kellys "track-record" as some kind of an assistant to the GM to what his work as an actual GM would be. We just don't know. Same goes btw the other way round. What does Ed Dodds, who was mentioned last time we searched a GM, make a better GM? His track record?
For me that sounds the same like Eric Bienemy's track record in building an offense.

[big_palooka]

8 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

Ok chief, ok. I get it, you're really just that incapable of intelligent conversation. 

Seriously, no wonder you marked so hard for Josh McDaniels. You haven't the slightest clue about how any of it works. Good to know. 

When Pat Graham winds up being a liability and Champ Kelly flops, I will make sure to remind you every single day just how much of a simp for all of them you were. Can't wait to see that 180 turn from you too. 

Get lost, kid, you're in over your head again and it's painful to watch. 

I went from a princess to a chief.... big day for me!

Did I even say I want Kelly as the GM? Pretty clear I don't in fact. Just think you saying "he can't draft" is nonsense because he's never had a GM job and full control.

You notice how NOBODY agrees with you on this? Maybe take a seat.

 

[big_palooka]

10 hours ago, Justwinning said:

How do you even know this?

He doesn't. He's just gauging off the Bears staff he was a part of and he hates anyone who has ties to JMD/DZ in the past. There is no validity to the statement. 

You want to be skeptical, fine. But to say the guy "can't draft" when he's never ran a team is just blindly hating on someone because of his connections. 

[ronjon1990]

2 hours ago, big_palooka said:

I went from a princess to a chief.... big day for me!

Did I even say I want Kelly as the GM? Pretty clear I don't in fact. Just think you saying "he can't draft" is nonsense because he's never had a GM job and full control.

You notice how NOBODY agrees with you on this? Maybe take a seat.

 

Alright, let's do this your way- Champ Kelly deserves the job because he's never held that particular job before and deserves credit for not being the sole individual making the horrendous draft picks under the Broncos and Bears, so we should straight up give him the full time GM role and worship his draft prowess based on absolutely nothing because we can't definitively say what, precisely, his role was in prior administrations. We must ignore his resume in it's entirety and just give him the job based on the fact that he seems to be a nice guy. Got it. 

Dear God, don't ever get in the business of hiring people. 

 

[big_palooka]

39 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Alright, let's do this your way- Champ Kelly deserves the job because he's never held that particular job before and deserves credit for not being the sole individual making the horrendous draft picks under the Broncos and Bears, so we should straight up give him the full time GM role and worship his draft prowess based on absolutely nothing because we can't definitively say what, precisely, his role was in prior administrations. We must ignore his resume in it's entirety and just give him the job based on the fact that he seems to be a nice guy. Got it. 

Dear God, don't ever get in the business of hiring people. 

 

See..... here you go again, creating your own narratives. I never once said Champ Kelly "deserves" the job. In fact, all I said was he has never been in control of a draft, so saying "he can't draft" is non-sense. 

It's the McDaniels/Ziegler/Graham argument all over again. 

I didn't want JMD/DZ hired - I said, well they are here, they should be given 3 years to see their vision through with the players/personalities they want in their system.

Graham - Said he needs some talent on his side of the ball to properly gauge him as a coach

Kelly - Simply said he's never ran a draft to gauge if he can or can't in fact draft. 

You take comments and run wild putting words in people's mouths calling them fan boys for supporting people already in the building. 

[ronjon1990]

3 hours ago, Styrian Raider said:

You can say that JMD's track record as HC was bad, and that's why you doubt that he is a good HC. Guys like me who thought he changed in 10 years, were wrong. You, among others, won that discussion.

But to me there is no way that you can judge Champ Kellys "track-record" as some kind of an assistant to the GM to what his work as an actual GM would be. We just don't know. Same goes btw the other way round. What does Ed Dodds, who was mentioned last time we searched a GM, make a better GM? His track record?
For me that sounds the same like Eric Bienemy's track record in building an offense.

Ok, then let me ask you this:

Then what on earth can we judge him by? His smile? 

He wasn't some patsy assistant to the GM just running to fetch coffee and water. He wasn't  "personal assistant to". He wasn't some mere secretary.

His job function, as I've listed out before elsewhere included (team amd years held in parentheses):

1. The director of college scouting (Chicago 2015 and 2016) is the position that organizes the team’s draft board.

This job requires combing all levels of college football and attributing grades to each player. Typically the director will delegate the scouting duties amongst a small staff responsible for certain regions of the country (Assistant Coordinator of Pro and College Scouting, Denver 2008 and 2009) 

The tasks are not limited to evaluating the physical talents of college players, as directors are also responsible for doing background checks on players to gauge their work ethic and to prognosticate any non-football issues that could arise. This requires maintaining relationships with college coaches throughout the country. 

Now, in these two positions, let's look at the track record:

2008 Broncos Draft was pretty ho--hum. Nothing particularly noteworthy. 

2009 Broncos Draft- Knowshon Moreno was a bust, Robert Ayers was highly underwhelming, Alphonso Smith was a bust the Broncos gave up their original 2010 1st for, Darcel McBath was a nobody, Richard Quinn was a nobody, and the rest of the draft were nin-factor day 3 picks. Did Champ Kelly make these picks at the podium himself? No. Did the GM make them without any input from Champ Kelly's recommendations and grades? Almost certainly. 

2015 Chicagi Bears Draft- Kevin White was a bust, Eddie Goldman was pretty good, Adrian Amos is pretty solid, the remainder of the selections were nobody noteworthy. 

2016 Chicago Bears Draft- Leonard Flloyd was sent packing but was a decent enough pick. Cody Whitehair is meh. The rest were JAGs. Nothing noteworthy. 

So in the Drafts he had a role in, he did practically nothing of note, but sure made some whiffs. He's had a hand in choosing selections, and it hasn't been what can be quantified as "good". But because he hasn't "not" had any hand in the draft process, it's fair and perfectly logical to conclude he's not particularly draft savvy. 

2. Job responsibilities include hiring the head coach, building the remainder of the personnel department staff, coordinating the rubric for scouting college prospects and compiling the team's roster in accordance to the NFL’s salary cap.

Clearly, the general manager can’t possibly handle all of these tasks personally. He divvies up the labor amongst his other front office staffers, but the general manager ultimately is accountable for all of the team’s personnel decisions.

As Assistant GM for the Raiders he had a part in compiling the roster, including the Drafts. The job performed hasn't been especially good, and given his ties to McDaniels from years past, there's no reason to believe Champ Kelly was sidelined or had no voice. 

3. As Assistant Director of Player Personnell (Chicago 2017-2021) his main responsibility was grading Draft prospects, advance scouting, and FA. 

2017- Mitchell Trubisky and Adam Shaheen were the Bears picks in the top 100. I'll even give some creditnfor Eddie Jackson and Tarik Cohen as they were close to top 100 picks (112 and 119). 

2018- Roquan Smith was a good pick. James Daniels, Anthony Miller, amd Joel Iyiegbuniwe....not so much. 

2019- David Montgomery and Riley Ridley. One is pretty solid, the other doesn't currently play. 3rd and 4th rounders only, due to the Khalil Mack trade. 

2020- Cole Kmet, Jaylon Johnson- both decent picks. Credit. 

2021- Justin Fields and Teven Jenkins. Oof. By the way, we're looking for QBOTF. Trubisky and Fields are major red flag whiffs. 

 

This whole narrative that he's had no hand in drafting whatsoever is utter nonsense being perpetuated by people who deal in copium. The same people who swore Josh changed and Dave was good talker who knew what he was doing.

Sorry, that's nonsense. It takes but a few minutes and clicks to research Champ Kelly's past, duties, and history. When you hire someone, you look at their resume- top to bottom. Champ Kelly's isn't particularly strong nor impressive and decidedly not without hand in some pretty major draft whiffs.

Again, if not his past, what are we allowed to judge his job performance on? Or is your position to gift the job to someone without any scrutiny whatsoever? Guys like Palooka and Justwinning will sit here and argue that the guy had no role in drafting- and that simply isn't true regardless of how much they want to try and pretend it is. I mean, for God's sake, it's literally in writing that it isn't true. They can accuse me of hating just to hate all day long if they want to, they did the same for another couple of guys who had bad track records and had no idea what they were doing. It took Palooka over a year to sort of understand the fundamental difference between being a HC and an OC for crying out loud. 

I don't make quick, unreasonable, unresearched, uninformed decisions on people. Unlike some notable detractors in here, I'll take the time to learn before running my mouth based on hype and hyperbole. I'd lay out pages worth of rationale for my criticisms of McDaniels, Zeigler, Graham, Kelly. Guys like Palooka won't. They'll use Twitter logic and write a quick bit of unsubstantiated nonsense that, as proven with me having to explain the difference between a HC and OC as well as Palooka's now disproven theory (to those capable of reading comprehension) regarding Champ Kelly's hand in Drafts, are little more than uninformed swipes and attempts to "be right"- something I'm sure he's desperate to be after coming hard after anyone who dared criticize McDaniels or the Patriot Way until everyone else started doing it. 

As for Ed Dodds, we could say hyped candidate and flavor of the week. But he spent a long time with Seattle around very successful regimes. 

Beyond that, he's been the Colts Asst. GM since 2017. A perfect job? Nope. That Wentz trade is a black mark for everyone. But in general, the Colts have been pretty rock solid with drafting and FA. Just as Champ Kelly has his fingerprints on picks and signings, so too do guys like Dodds and Agnew in Detroit. To answer your question about him- what Dodds has done in his career as an NFL FO guy is far more impressive than Champ Kelly's. Look it up. The job done by the crew up in Seattle and the job done in Indianapolis despite the Andrew Luck surprise retirement and QB revolving door warrants a look from NFL teams for a full time GM position. 

For what it's worth Dodds isn't even my favorite candidate. He was just a name thrown around as far as I cared- a name being thrown around by the media and parrotted by fans. I'd give him a shout, sure, but not as my first choice. That still beats Champ Kelly by a mile, who has had his hands in some terrible Drafts, signings, and roster constructions- including our own. 

[ronjon1990]

52 minutes ago, big_palooka said:

See..... here you go again, creating your own narratives. I never once said Champ Kelly "deserves" the job. In fact, all I said was he has never been in control of a draft, so saying "he can't draft" is non-sense. 

It's the McDaniels/Ziegler/Graham argument all over again. 

I didn't want JMD/DZ hired - I said, well they are here, they should be given 3 years to see their vision through with the players/personalities they want in their system.

Graham - Said he needs some talent on his side of the ball to properly gauge him as a coach

Kelly - Simply said he's never ran a draft to gauge if he can or can't in fact draft. 

You take comments and run wild putting words in people's mouths calling them fan boys for supporting people already in the building. 

1. And as soon as that was no longer the popular opinion, you weren't willing to stand by your assertions. Classic lack of confidence and conviction. 

2. He's had talent in the past and didn't get much out of it, and what he did get was never sustained or consistent. Yet we supposedly have improved across the board despite not, you know, actually improving. 

3. As if Champ Kelly has never been involved with drafting and was but a mere paper pusher- which, factually, is incorrect despite your adamant arguments to the contrary. 

4. No, I used your words against you. Rather, I use your lack thereof as you've never once provided any rational basis for the many defenses you have come to. That is fanboyism.

I asked you to provide a real reason for your full throated support of Josh McDaniels inight of his quantifiable job history. You gave some crap about the Way needing time and his prowess as a playcaller, ignoring every shred of evidence linking that prowess to Belichick running the grand show and Tom Brady being the GOAT. 

I asked you to provide a real reason for your full throated support of Patrick Graham in light of his quantifiable job history. You gave me the patented Pat Graham Respectomete, ignoring every shred of evidence showing a guy who has routinely followed Patriot guys around and failed upwards. 

Now, I ask what Champ Kelly has ever done to warrant the job. You can't come up with anything substantive other than "Well, he's already here" and some falsehoods about his track record having no hand in drafting. 

I call you a fanboy, because you are until you decide not to be- usually when it's time to save face (weird, being as you say it's my ego that can't handle a forum of strangers). You do a lot of challenging other people's critiques, but never provide your own or anything supporting your own assertions other than unquantifiable feelings and "not wanting more change". You reject logic and have begun to straight up deny easily provable facts. You blatantly ignore statistical evidence and history to prop yourself up as some paragon of Raider support. You accuse other posters of being "fake fans" or "needing to be right", yet you routinely refuse to provide anything substantive to any argument you make. You go out of your way to pick a debate about McDaniels, Graham, Kelly- and yet you refuse to actually provide anything tangible in support of them. You will not (and I'm beginning to sincerely believe cannot) provide any rational basis for your convictions despite your repeated attempts to drum up or start some sort of asinine dialog with posters who don't agree with you. So, yeah, you are a fanboy...and worse, you're a fanboy who can't even explain why you're a fanboy other than attempting to portray some weird sense of elevated fandom by fanboying just to fanboy while accusing others of "hating just to hate" like it makes you seem like a more knowledgeable, sincere, true fan. 

Maybe if you bothered actually, I don't know, researching anything before running your mouth, I wouldn't call you a fanboy. Maybe if you bothered to provide anything beyond hopes and feelings while criticizing others' posts, I wouldn't call you a hack. But you haven't, and, given that you probably can't, I will gladly continue to accuse you of homerism and being a fanboy any time you try and pick an argument while showing up not even empty handed, but with falsehoods and platitudes. 

[SimonGruber]

Anyways back to the opponent @ hand. If Achane is activated this could get out of hand the spot it terrible it’s O Connell’s first real road start.

[true2form]

I just want to say congrats to @big_palooka and @ronjon1990 for continuing to find things to argue about even after the regime is gone.  It's entertaining at the very least. Bravo 😉

[big_palooka]

57 minutes ago, true2form said:

I just want to say congrats to @big_palooka and @ronjon1990 for continuing to find things to argue about even after the regime is gone.  It's entertaining at the very least. Bravo 😉

The regime isn't gone. That's his problem. Champ Kelly and Graham still have ties to either JMD/DZ or the Pats and he can't objectively look past that. 

[RaidersAreOne]

Hmmm...

Not sure I love this. I'd have preferred to get out there and acclimated to the time/climate. 

[big_palooka]

1 hour ago, SimonGruber said:

Anyways back to the opponent @ hand. If Achane is activated this could get out of hand the spot it terrible it’s O Connell’s first real road start.

How is Miami's defense? I've not really kept up with them on that side under Fangio. They have 2 top end CBs and some good pass rushers.