jebrick Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 Steelers need a RT and center so a good draft for them. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 20 hours ago, Daniel said: As great as this tackle class is, this is something I was actually talking about recently. It's pretty short on the traditional left tackle. I will qualify that by saying I know that both sides demand, to a degree, the same thing, and that it varies by scheme, but... The only top end guys I see and think are easy left tackles are Alt and Fashanu. Morgan is built like that too, but I think he's firmly in the second tier. After that there are some guys as well, but we're just talking depth at this point. I think Walter Rouse and Javon Foster have the left tackle traits, but again, depth. They aren't even on the list. Mims is built like a right tackle, but I think he could easily shift to the left side. Has all the traits you want. But I think Fuaga, Latham, Guyton, and Fisher are right tackles. Maybe they could move over, but their traits are more traditional in a right tackle, so I wouldn't want to depend on it. Paul and Suimataia too, but I honestly think they just kind of suck as prospects in general, so I don't want them on either side. Fautanu and Barton are guards. The others I don't really know anything about, but those look like right tackle/guard weights. Interesting to know what the good examples are of 'right only' prospects playing left tackle in the NFL. I know there are technical reasons why some guys prefer to play on one side or the other, but the likes of Guyton and Mims are at least the traditional easy-moving 'dancing bears' you like to see on that side. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 25 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: Interesting to know what the good examples are of 'right only' prospects playing left tackle in the NFL. I know there are technical reasons why some guys prefer to play on one side or the other, but the likes of Guyton and Mims are at least the traditional easy-moving 'dancing bears' you like to see on that side. I've heard (though I don't know of any specific schemes that implement it as such) that a lot of teams have trended towards viewing right and left tackle as the same, or at least more similar than we've done in the past. On both sides, you want quick and fluid enough movement to cut off speedy and bendy Edge rushers, the ability to move and block in space, and to just pass block. If you can do all of that, you're a tackle. If you have a particularly run heavy scheme, maybe you care less about pass blocking and bendy edges. But only a few teams have that. Even the Titans have been pretty desperate for a tackle that can actually pass block, and we ran the ball as much as anyone, so I don't know how true the above is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 13 minutes ago, Daniel said: I've heard (though I don't know of any specific schemes that implement it as such) that a lot of teams have trended towards viewing right and left tackle as the same, or at least more similar than we've done in the past. On both sides, you want quick and fluid enough movement to cut off speedy and bendy Edge rushers, the ability to move and block in space, and to just pass block. If you can do all of that, you're a tackle. If you have a particularly run heavy scheme, maybe you care less about pass blocking and bendy edges. But only a few teams have that. Even the Titans have been pretty desperate for a tackle that can actually pass block, and we ran the ball as much as anyone, so I don't know how true the above is. I think teams have certainly started to place more substantial value in getting those two quality "bookends" than ever before, and along with that...it is a lot of the same things that teams are looking for there. Guys who can handle modern pass rushers with speed and length like that. But they're certainly not viewed as "interchangeable" positions. There's still a very prevalent trend toward having the "best" tackle at LT. That's prioritized and RT ends up being the spot where teams will compromise a little bit more. It's also fairly common for teams to look at a college LT and think of them as a guy who will end up at RT or can play both. Whereas there's not a lot of precedent for seeing college RTs as NFL LTs. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 I think most of it comes down to if you CAN play LT (have the speed, footwork, skill, etc) then you'll have done it in College, short of you being a RT on the same team as a Top 5 OT prospect. Most teams are going to prioritize LT b/c the the QB can't make up for their mistake as easily as he can a RT where the DE would be in his peripheral and easier to feel than the LT's DE where he's not going to feel it till he is picking himself up off the ground. Then you have muscle memory and if a guy has spent the last 8 years always kicking out the same way and practicing the same way, he won't be as fast or as skilled going the opposite way. Not to say he can't but it'll take time to flip it. So I think if you played LT in college, have the skill set and the right build (arm length, etc) then you MIGHT be a LT prospect, but could be a RT prospect (avg LT can be a great RT essentially). If you played RT then you're probably a RT or moving down to G. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 3 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: I think most of it comes down to if you CAN play LT (have the speed, footwork, skill, etc) then you'll have done it in College, short of you being a RT on the same team as a Top 5 OT prospect. Most teams are going to prioritize LT b/c the the QB can't make up for their mistake as easily as he can a RT where the DE would be in his peripheral and easier to feel than the LT's DE where he's not going to feel it till he is picking himself up off the ground. Then you have muscle memory and if a guy has spent the last 8 years always kicking out the same way and practicing the same way, he won't be as fast or as skilled going the opposite way. Not to say he can't but it'll take time to flip it. So I think if you played LT in college, have the skill set and the right build (arm length, etc) then you MIGHT be a LT prospect, but could be a RT prospect (avg LT can be a great RT essentially). If you played RT then you're probably a RT or moving down to G. Yeah. At the end of the day, teams are always going to ask, "if you can do it, why didn't you?" Unless you've got a Joeckel + Matthews sort of situation or something, but even then...the latter just stayed an extra year to prove that he can be a top LT (and ended up a lot better lol). The other real situation that could be at play...is if you're talking about a college team with a Lefty QB where things are sort of flipped. Maybe. The final situation could still be someone like Guyton with some extenuating circumstances who is making a positional switch from defense to offense in the first place, and they perhaps didn't want to completely throw him to the wolves and/or depend on him as a LT, so they eased him in at RT. Where he then stuck, because they didn't want to overload him with a RT -> LT transition on top of all the other stuff. Though that still has to raise questions for NFL teams drafting him, about when, or how soon you'd even be able to try to get him to make the switch as a Pro. If it's just a case of, try to make the switch immediately, or are you going to have to let him get comfortable as a Pro at RT before even trying to move him? But it certain invites an awful lot of questions before i think you could even tentatively project him as a possible LT Pro. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Techbert Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 My opinion of left vs right tackles is, aside from a little left hand vs right hand stuff, you should scout tackles that do what you need. A lot of this left/right crap is from 50 years ago but the league does not change certain things. The left/right crap is older than the Jimmy Johnson trade chart, and even worse for football. Once upon the time, when Oklahoma and Nebraska ruled college football with various option offenses, it was hard to get a top offensive lineman who knew what they were doing in pass pro. They didn't practice it, and they did not need it in college. And the pros were still in the Establish The Run First And Then Pass mindset so the were fine with getting maulers and teach them some pass pro. Then lo and behold they relaxed the rules on passing and even the college game started using linebackers that could actually run and cover and things so teams had to pass and they had to hold their blocks a second longer and the quarterbacks became smaller and more mobile and could not just stand there like Roman Gabriel with a coupla defensive linemen hanging from him when he threw. So there were a precious few long and mobile offensive linemen after a while and they were used at left tackles because the strong statues standing tall in the pocket were paid to keep their eyes downfield and had a blind side. Yeah, everyone that lasted had an internal clock but every year there was a devastating blind side hit or two that shot the fumble out twenty yards and made the replay shows on Saturday (no internet). Now fast forward and now it is easier to find an offensive lineman that came from a passing tradition than the reverse. Everyone knows how to pass pro, even if they don't always have the ability, just like they all know how to run block in at least some scheme, even if they don't have that ability. Meanwhile the rush comes from both sides. So you need a level of pass pro on both sides. The advantage of a good left tackle is not to shore up the blind side; it is to allow the focus on secondary pass pro to be elsewhere much like a shutdown corner affects how the safeties play. Now here are the two secrets. One, the old time teams that did well could run to their left side. Art Shell could pass pro just fine, AND the Raiders would wear you out running left. Two, there were always left defensive ends that could pass rush. Yeah, Khalil Mack but he did not start anything. Deacon Jones was a LDE and he came up with the name for a sack. Well, not always. They once kept a stout tight end on the right side and you had to be a stout de to stand up to that double-team, but once it became more common to flip te or have a te that can't block or no te at all that lost meaning and you could put a fast guy 250# over there. So I say get guys that do what you need for the run AND the pass and put them on both sides. Don't give them a free side to pass rush and don't show them a run right predilection. Tackles today are tackles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted February 6 Share Posted February 6 (edited) 1 hour ago, Techbert said: My opinion of left vs right tackles is, aside from a little left hand vs right hand stuff, you should scout tackles that do what you need. A lot of this left/right crap is from 50 years ago but the league does not change certain things. The left/right crap is older than the Jimmy Johnson trade chart, and even worse for football. Once upon the time, when Oklahoma and Nebraska ruled college football with various option offenses, it was hard to get a top offensive lineman who knew what they were doing in pass pro. They didn't practice it, and they did not need it in college. And the pros were still in the Establish The Run First And Then Pass mindset so the were fine with getting maulers and teach them some pass pro. Then lo and behold they relaxed the rules on passing and even the college game started using linebackers that could actually run and cover and things so teams had to pass and they had to hold their blocks a second longer and the quarterbacks became smaller and more mobile and could not just stand there like Roman Gabriel with a coupla defensive linemen hanging from him when he threw. So there were a precious few long and mobile offensive linemen after a while and they were used at left tackles because the strong statues standing tall in the pocket were paid to keep their eyes downfield and had a blind side. Yeah, everyone that lasted had an internal clock but every year there was a devastating blind side hit or two that shot the fumble out twenty yards and made the replay shows on Saturday (no internet). Now fast forward and now it is easier to find an offensive lineman that came from a passing tradition than the reverse. Everyone knows how to pass pro, even if they don't always have the ability, just like they all know how to run block in at least some scheme, even if they don't have that ability. Meanwhile the rush comes from both sides. So you need a level of pass pro on both sides. The advantage of a good left tackle is not to shore up the blind side; it is to allow the focus on secondary pass pro to be elsewhere much like a shutdown corner affects how the safeties play. Now here are the two secrets. One, the old time teams that did well could run to their left side. Art Shell could pass pro just fine, AND the Raiders would wear you out running left. Two, there were always left defensive ends that could pass rush. Yeah, Khalil Mack but he did not start anything. Deacon Jones was a LDE and he came up with the name for a sack. Well, not always. They once kept a stout tight end on the right side and you had to be a stout de to stand up to that double-team, but once it became more common to flip te or have a te that can't block or no te at all that lost meaning and you could put a fast guy 250# over there. So I say get guys that do what you need for the run AND the pass and put them on both sides. Don't give them a free side to pass rush and don't show them a run right predilection. Tackles today are tackles. I mean, yeah...in an ideal world, you'd love to have a pair of bookends who can both "do everything you want". Guys with traditional LT talent/skillsets. But the reality is, these serious scarcity of that sort of player. It's rare to just stumble into a pair of them, and it's a huge advantage when you do. But more realistically, you're going to have to make a compromise somewhere...and LT is still prioritized over RT for that top tier athlete. You can survive a lot better with a mediocre RT than a bad LT. The nature of the positions is still that you can sometimes skew things that way to help more (if your LT is good enough on an island). So you can survive with a RT that maybe doesn't have quite the ideal desired "dancing bear" movement skills. Edited February 6 by Tugboat 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 Assuming a LT is the best athlete of the offensive lineman, here are the true LTs in this draft I feel or the best pass protectors or at least guys who could end up as a LT in the NFL. Olumuyiwa Fashanu Penn State RS JR Joe Alt Notre Dame JR Amarius Mims Georgia JR Kingsley Suamataia BYU RS SOPH Jordan Morgan Arizona RS Patrick Paul Houston RS JR Caleb Etienne Oklahoma State RS Roger Rosengarten Washington RS SOPH Walter Rouse Oklahoma RS LaDarius Henderson Michigan RS Julian Pearl Illinois RS Here are the solid RTs but of course a bad LT can always swing over to RT possibly and succeed more potentially but all depends. A few are more classic ones, guys like Etienne could do it or Alt if asked but not sure it is a natural spot. Troy Fautanu Washington RS JR JC Latham Alabama JR Jordan Morgan Arizona RS Taliese Fuaga Oregon State JR Blake Fisher Notre Dame RS SOPH Christian Jones Texas RS Tyler Guyton Oklahoma RS JR Roger Rosengarten Washington RS SOPH LaDarius Henderson Michigan RS Javon Foster Missouri RS Jeremy James Ole Miss RS Andrew Coker TCU RS Julian Pearl Illinois RS Caedan Wallace Penn State RS Jeremy Flax Kentucky Then the standard OT moving inside to OG where they will be better, especially if either OT stop is a struggle. JC Latham Alabama JR Troy Fautanu Washington RS JR Taliese Fuaga Oregon State JR Brandon Coleman TCU RS Xavier Truss Georgia RS Karsen Barnhart Michigan RS LaDarius Henderson Michigan RS Javon Foster Missouri RS Jeremy James Ole Miss RS Jeremy Flax Kentucky Is hard to tell with Alt because he struggled so much, maybe he is more of a RT with those struggles or a pass protecting guard but will be interesting how he works out. But yeah he struggled a lot I thought for a guy hyped up as being the best pass protector arguably in college football. Now it is Olumuyiwa Fashanu as the clear #1 I feel. Guys like Latham and Fautanu I think would be great guards, but both could succeed at RT as well, will be curious where they end up. Easily could say Latham and Fautanu are the most talented guards potentially if they are moved there. Barnhart is another one where he did look a lot better at OG during the year than at OT in pass pro where he got beat pretty consistently. The Tyler Guyton 1st round hype not sure where that is coming from. Sure he is solid and impressed at times this past year but not sure he has been consistently dominant enough to be considering a 1st rounder. So unless he totally blows up at the combine athletically not sure he is worth that high of a pick as a RT. Being a RS JR he only really started all season this past year the year before he only was a starter for 5 games and at TCU not sure he started on the OL at all. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 1 hour ago, Ozzy said: Is hard to tell with Alt because he struggled so much, maybe he is more of a RT with those struggles or a pass protecting guard but will be interesting how he works out. But yeah he struggled a lot I thought for a guy hyped up as being the best pass protector arguably in college football. he allowed 5 pressures all year… 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozzy Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 8 hours ago, -Hope- said: he allowed 5 pressures all year… You obviously did not watch the Duke and Louisville games for Notre Dame. Both were pretty bad, I believe the OL as a hole gave up 5 sacks against Louisville alone and I would not be surprised if Alt gave up 4-5 pressures in just that game. But sure I guess technically it was not awful as a season but I did have him as the #1 OT in the nation and by far the #1 LT and that is not the case anymore. Sure it is not all him and possibly the OG opposite him was bad and I think he was. Still one would expect straight domination out of him but a few games Hartman got killed and Alt was to blame on some rushes no question. Maybe it was just the defensive scheme but it was awful against Louisville in how that OL played in general and Alt was a reason for that bad play just like the rest. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 So, I thought to myself, there's no way Alt struggled that badly against Louisville and Duke when he was dominant against as good a DL as Ohio St. So I pulled up the tape myself, and wouldn't you know it, I couldn't believe it because it's not true. I will say it's the worst tape I've seen from Alt, because he does give up a sack. So, I'll go over the reps I can see where maybe it looks bad for Alt. First is around 0:35, where he misses a block because he's clearly schemed to block the guy inside to his right, but he abandons that because the LB blitzes around his left. Doesn't get to the QB, but Alt does fail to block him, so I guess we can say there Alt failed to prevent a potential sack that wouldn't have been his fault. 1:21 you get the same, but Alt does get to the guy. But again, second guy Alt is blocking there, so again, not his fault, and that guy only gets the QB because the QB is right on Alt's ***, and the left guard never takes over Alt's original block when 41 crosses his face. At 3:50, I guess the Edge gets around him a little. He doesn't pressure the QB or anything, but I guess Alt doesn't completely win the block. 4:40, here is actually a bad play by Alt. His feet gets tangled with the Edge, and he trips and gives up a sack. 7:41, Edge eventually gets off of Alt, but looking at the clock, Alt locked him up for four seconds before he got off of him, and it took 6 before he got to the QB, who got rid of the ball. I'd say giving your QB that much time is at least doing your job. 9:13, he falls again, while getting hands on two separate defenders. Coogan's guy straight up runs at him and pushes him from the side while he blocks the Edge and so Coogan's guy knocks him down. Play is going the other way, so doesn't matter. So that's it. Alt struggled mightily by giving up one sack where he tripped, two times where he didn't completely win a block, and three times where he fails to prevent someone else's mistake. Trash prospect, obviously. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-Hope- Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 27 minutes ago, Daniel said: So, I thought to myself, there's no way Alt struggled that badly against Louisville and Duke when he was dominant against as good a DL as Ohio St. So I pulled up the tape myself, and wouldn't you know it, I couldn't believe it because it's not true. I will say it's the worst tape I've seen from Alt, because he does give up a sack. So, I'll go over the reps I can see where maybe it looks bad for Alt. First is around 0:35, where he misses a block because he's clearly schemed to block the guy inside to his right, but he abandons that because the LB blitzes around his left. Doesn't get to the QB, but Alt does fail to block him, so I guess we can say there Alt failed to prevent a potential sack that wouldn't have been his fault. 1:21 you get the same, but Alt does get to the guy. But again, second guy Alt is blocking there, so again, not his fault, and that guy only gets the QB because the QB is right on Alt's ***, and the left guard never takes over Alt's original block when 41 crosses his face. At 3:50, I guess the Edge gets around him a little. He doesn't pressure the QB or anything, but I guess Alt doesn't completely win the block. 4:40, here is actually a bad play by Alt. His feet gets tangled with the Edge, and he trips and gives up a sack. 7:41, Edge eventually gets off of Alt, but looking at the clock, Alt locked him up for four seconds before he got off of him, and it took 6 before he got to the QB, who got rid of the ball. I'd say giving your QB that much time is at least doing your job. 9:13, he falls again, while getting hands on two separate defenders. Coogan's guy straight up runs at him and pushes him from the side while he blocks the Edge and so Coogan's guy knocks him down. Play is going the other way, so doesn't matter. So that's it. Alt struggled mightily by giving up one sack where he tripped, two times where he didn't completely win a block, and three times where he fails to prevent someone else's mistake. Trash prospect, obviously. citing the duke game is even funnier. alt has *maybe* one pass pro loss the entire game. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MaddHatter Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 "1:21 you get the same, but Alt does get to the guy. But again, second guy Alt is blocking there, so again, not his fault, and that guy only gets the QB because the QB is right on Alt's ***, and the left guard never takes over Alt's original block when 41 crosses his face." This play looked like a complete failure on the QB to read the defense. They're clearly schemed to shift block to their right, which typically would have the RB pick up the 5th rusher off the left side (not sure why 5 men can't block 5 men but the entire OL shifts right here so clearly that's the call), but the RB runs a faux fake run to the right that the QB doesn't even fake, leaving the LB off the Left side completely unblocked. This forces the QB up in the pocket where the DT from the opposite side (Defenses left) comes across two defenders backsides and the C and LG fail to swap and this prevents Alt from being able to disengage and pick the guy up. This long cross rush takes time to develop and requires a QB to hold the ball for 3-4 seconds at minimum, which would never happen if the RB picks up the free man rushing on this play. Not saying Alt was perfect here, but this was a huge failure created by the design of the play and the recognition of the QB/RB 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 8 Share Posted February 8 4 minutes ago, MaddHatter said: "1:21 you get the same, but Alt does get to the guy. But again, second guy Alt is blocking there, so again, not his fault, and that guy only gets the QB because the QB is right on Alt's ***, and the left guard never takes over Alt's original block when 41 crosses his face." This play looked like a complete failure on the QB to read the defense. They're clearly schemed to shift block to their right, which typically would have the RB pick up the 5th rusher off the left side (not sure why 5 men can't block 5 men but the entire OL shifts right here so clearly that's the call), but the RB runs a faux fake run to the right that the QB doesn't even fake, leaving the LB off the Left side completely unblocked. This forces the QB up in the pocket where the DT from the opposite side (Defenses left) comes across two defenders backsides and the C and LG fail to swap and this prevents Alt from being able to disengage and pick the guy up. This long cross rush takes time to develop and requires a QB to hold the ball for 3-4 seconds at minimum, which would never happen if the RB picks up the free man rushing on this play. Not saying Alt was perfect here, but this was a huge failure created by the design of the play and the recognition of the QB/RB This happened like five or six times where there was like a completely unaccounted for DL or blitzer. If I'm Freeman, my OC has some explaining to do after that game. Also, I just googled who it was, and they replaced their OC a month ago, lol. I can very much see why after watching this game. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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