2018/19 Europe Thread - It begins again

[Mega Ron]

There we have it. 

**** you super League.

[agarcia34]

Super teams have fallen apart. As a casual soccer fan the idea was cool. Would hate it if I was really into soccer. 

[Mega Ron]

2 hours ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Never forget. Bubbles was the name of Michael Jacksons pet chimp when singing your song.

Ok Nigel.

[Oregon Ducks]

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea/story/4365271/sources-chelsea-to-ask-out-of-super-league-in-shock-reversal
 

Roman to the rescue

[SalvadorsDeli]

Lol I love that the Kroenke's couldn't even pull off their evil robbery scheme correctly. Absolute morons through and through. 

[Hunter2_1]

HAHAHA!!

 

Chelsea, City and Barca...

 

[Hunter2_1]

@persiandud I can be a Chelsea fan for the night!  Class fans outside the stadium right now protesting. Tuchal - class.

 

 

[Hunter2_1]

17 minutes ago, Oregon Ducks said:

https://www.espn.com/soccer/chelsea/story/4365271/sources-chelsea-to-ask-out-of-super-league-in-shock-reversal
 

Roman to the rescue

The non-American owned teams ay...?

[Dr LBC]

10 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

There's a line of thinking going around that this is just a power play from the 'big' 6 clubs. A way of leveraging more money out of UEFA, as a result of losing Bns due to the pandemic. This guys explains it;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aPewg7GlwH8&t=455s

"when we talk about greed, where is this greed? The greed that we're talking about is having to fuel this ravenous beast which is the cost implications of running football clubs and players' salaries. We've sat here watching football bleed out its eyes whilst salaries go UP; where's this money going to go?!

....A: it's not going to happen - it's going to give UEFA a bloody nose and concentrate their minds [starts laying into UEFA..as a corrupt divisive disingenuous bunch of slobs] ....this is wrong, it needs to be stopped and it WILL. It's about changing the control of distribution of money from UEFA to these clubs. UEFA get 3.3Bn a year for the CL....and they distribute it how they decide.....[etc] it's a power play"

Worth a watch, he's an ex chairman and a football economist

I'm of the opinion there is no proverbial "good guy" in this.  The media (in particular Sky Sports) are culpable.  Club owners are culpable.  FIFA/UEFA, hell the FA (if we really go back and look at the launching of the Premier League and how it did a lot of local, "smaller" clubs dirty and only served to service the quote-unquote "big earners" as it progressed) are culpable.  Countries that outright enabled these "big 6" clubs (in particular, *cough* Spain *cough*) are culpable.  Fans bear a share of brunt, just in the matter of what they've given a pass to as acceptable because it didn't substantially affect (or, in a number of cases, benefited) their respective clubs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Honestly, a whole lot of arrogance led to this  because it's not like the prospect of a European Super League hasn't been bandied about for 15-20 years - I remember David Dein being at the forefront of trying to lay the skeleton when he parted ways as Arsenal's vice-chairman.  Everyone (and I do pretty much mean everyone) was content to sit idly by and watch a nibble get taken, then another nibble, then another, and now people are honestly surprised that the nibbler is taking a much larger bite?  This is either a monumental failure in awareness and foresight to put in place any sort of legislative precaution to deter this sort of thing (again... over 20 years!) or just pure arrogance... or honestly both, because they're not mutually-exclusive.

Best case (in terms of most people satisfied; I honestly feel like a bigger to-do is being made out of this because of the uncertainty and, frankly, people just being adverse to change - in the long scheme I don't think this would really be much more different than when the European Club Winners Cup competition was turned into Champions League, adaptation would occur, it's only natural), in my opinion, is that this finally fires the rocket up FIFA and UEFA's backsides to realize that they can't just keep paying lip-service and collecting checks that make them look horridly hypocritical.  I'm less optimistic about that because, well, I'm not optimistic about anything where FIFA is stake-holder and I just feel like this may end up going the same way, for example, BREXIT did where the two sides collectively spend more time whinging than actually trying to find a solution and one is ultimately forced to follow-through on their original posit because they run out of time to enact a feasible alternative.

I just find it interesting, for so many of the people (pundits especially, but also sooo many supporters) that this is the final straw.  Bending over backwards to allow clubs to be bought out by Russian oligarchs wasn't the step too far.  Nor were Saudi royal families.  Nor were, by effective proxy, entire foreign governments/countries.  A World Cup being awarded to Russia while it was in the middle of annexing Ukraine... because they paid enough, wasn't that step too far.  Awarding a World Cup to Qatar even though it would upset and plant smack in the middle of the professional season of virtually all leagues worldwide (again... because they paid a handsome enough sum) wasn't that step.  Financial Fair Play being enforced as little more than a paper tiger.  The list goes on and on.

[Dr LBC]

11 hours ago, Hunter2_1 said:

Possibly, but there's a chance the 'legacy' (f* off) fans can have their say. Carra was saying LFC hounded out the previous American owners, and they will do this again. Says the owners (FSG) need to be very careful now. Danny Murphy predicting LFC fans will act and do their best to remove this situation etc.

I'm not advocating violence, but that club is all thousands of people have. They WILL defend it if need be.

Bank of Scotland did more to hound out the pre-Henry owners of Liverpool than the fans did; the fans just took credit for it and the media was happy to run with it because it made for a more sellable/profitably narrative.

[Dr LBC]

5 hours ago, SalvadorsDeli said:

To add on to this, what I think the breakaway clubs are missing with this move is that it's been the spirit, atmosphere, and passion of local fans that made these clubs so appealing for foreign fans in the first place. Even for people who watch the games purely on TV, what attracted them to the EPL in the first place was the crowds they could hear/see in the background, an atmosphere that the Sky executives smartly packaged up as 'authentic' and then sold to the masses. Especially looking at European football in contrast to American sports, it was always sold to the existing ("legacy") fans as something more community-driven and authentic than what we get with our own franchise-driven sports systems (college football notwithstanding).

This bit I'd definitely debate.  In particular with regard to American foreign fans, but it's not just limited to Americans by a stretch.  As a founding member of a club-recognized supporter's chapter, I can't tell you how many local (American) supporters I've met who claim to support two or more clubs (most of them different leagues, but I've run into stranger before) or whose inception of support coincidentally coincided with being on the heels of a landmark milestone (United's 20th, Arsenal's Invincibles, Chelsea's Double or CL win, City's Centurions... Spurs making the CL final - yeah, I had to take a bit of dig there or I wouldn't be me); every supporter of a German, French, or Spanish club I encounter is a Bayern (with the very, very occasional Dortmund), PSG, Barca, or Real Madrid supporter, respectively.  You aren't going to find a slew of American fans or foreign fans in general that don't have a familial or dynastic connection to the club or area of a country aren't latching themselves on and investing their time into a club that isn't a regular winner (or wasn't when they onboarded as a supporter).

[Mega Ron]

1 hour ago, Dr LBC said:

I'm of the opinion there is no proverbial "good guy" in this.  The media (in particular Sky Sports) are culpable.  Club owners are culpable.  FIFA/UEFA, hell the FA (if we really go back and look at the launching of the Premier League and how it did a lot of local, "smaller" clubs dirty and only served to service the quote-unquote "big earners" as it progressed) are culpable.  Countries that outright enabled these "big 6" clubs (in particular, *cough* Spain *cough*) are culpable.  Fans bear a share of brunt, just in the matter of what they've given a pass to as acceptable because it didn't substantially affect (or, in a number of cases, benefited) their respective clubs.  There's plenty of blame to go around.

Honestly, a whole lot of arrogance led to this  because it's not like the prospect of a European Super League hasn't been bandied about for 15-20 years - I remember David Dein being at the forefront of trying to lay the skeleton when he parted ways as Arsenal's vice-chairman.  Everyone (and I do pretty much mean everyone) was content to sit idly by and watch a nibble get taken, then another nibble, then another, and now people are honestly surprised that the nibbler is taking a much larger bite?  This is either a monumental failure in awareness and foresight to put in place any sort of legislative precaution to deter this sort of thing (again... over 20 years!) or just pure arrogance... or honestly both, because they're not mutually-exclusive.

Best case (in terms of most people satisfied; I honestly feel like a bigger to-do is being made out of this because of the uncertainty and, frankly, people just being adverse to change - in the long scheme I don't think this would really be much more different than when the European Club Winners Cup competition was turned into Champions League, adaptation would occur, it's only natural), in my opinion, is that this finally fires the rocket up FIFA and UEFA's backsides to realize that they can't just keep paying lip-service and collecting checks that make them look horridly hypocritical.  I'm less optimistic about that because, well, I'm not optimistic about anything where FIFA is stake-holder and I just feel like this may end up going the same way, for example, BREXIT did where the two sides collectively spend more time whinging than actually trying to find a solution and one is ultimately forced to follow-through on their original posit because they run out of time to enact a feasible alternative.

I just find it interesting, for so many of the people (pundits especially, but also sooo many supporters) that this is the final straw.  Bending over backwards to allow clubs to be bought out by Russian oligarchs wasn't the step too far.  Nor were Saudi royal families.  Nor were, by effective proxy, entire foreign governments/countries.  A World Cup being awarded to Russia while it was in the middle of annexing Ukraine... because they paid enough, wasn't that step too far.  Awarding a World Cup to Qatar even though it would upset and plant smack in the middle of the professional season of virtually all leagues worldwide (again... because they paid a handsome enough sum) wasn't that step.  Financial Fair Play being enforced as little more than a paper tiger.  The list goes on and on.

There is a long list of wrongs.

But there has never been a football league or competition that was closed. Nor has there been a competition, outside of pre season, that was invite only.

It's just not a competition if there is no competition.

 

[Dr LBC]

4 minutes ago, Mega Ron said:

There is a long list of wrongs.

But there has never been a football league or competition that was closed. Nor has there been a competition, outside of pre season, that was invite only.

It's just not a competition if there is no competition.

 

Not true; they just weren't competitions that were given a ton of credibility (sorry, Spurs fans, I'm referring to the Audi Cup here).  Every summer we see competitions that are invite-only.

I don't think that the Super League is a good thing, but I think it's borne out of a lot of people passing the buck content to blame others without ever actually addressing the problems.  And just killing the Super League doesn't fix that, it only serves to pass the buck further along, because it will give entities like UEFA and FIFA, largely, passes on their own transgressions - for what they allowed and what they, themselves, have done in the name of their own greed.  It was already brought up in this thread (on this page or the last) the 3rd UEFA league that's set to start next year is nearly equally as absurd, and damn near trivializes the "spirit of competition" as much.  And it's little more than a money-grab by UEFA to sell yet another television rights deal; it's not like it was something that was in-demand or sought-after by member clubs or leagues.

And, treading as close as I'm willing to get to "political" stuffs here, I just find it rich (pun intended) that so many people who have put the ultra-wealthy (be it clubs or owners) on a pedestal and rarely missed an opportunity to defend them (or deflect from their shortcomings) are now suddenly anti-rich/anti-greed as though it's opening the Seventh Seal.  For a prime example, look no further than the amount of simping (God, I feel old just using that term) for Bayern going on right now... and this is for a club who, anytime any league competitor gets within 10 points or less of their top spot in a given year, turns around and just buys said clubs top two players (needed or not), abusing gross market inequity.  But hey, let's champion the fact that Bayern didn't jump on board for the Super League... when no German club would have because German clubs are still actually fan-owned, by and large... and, in reality, had they been independently-owned, they absolutely would have.

[Oregon Ducks]

 

[Kip Smithers]

1 hour ago, Dr LBC said:

Not true; they just weren't competitions that were given a ton of credibility (sorry, Spurs fans, I'm referring to the Audi Cup here).  Every summer we see competitions that are invite-only.

I don't think that the Super League is a good thing, but I think it's borne out of a lot of people passing the buck content to blame others without ever actually addressing the problems.  And just killing the Super League doesn't fix that, it only serves to pass the buck further along, because it will give entities like UEFA and FIFA, largely, passes on their own transgressions - for what they allowed and what they, themselves, have done in the name of their own greed.  It was already brought up in this thread (on this page or the last) the 3rd UEFA league that's set to start next year is nearly equally as absurd, and damn near trivializes the "spirit of competition" as much.  And it's little more than a money-grab by UEFA to sell yet another television rights deal; it's not like it was something that was in-demand or sought-after by member clubs or leagues.

And, treading as close as I'm willing to get to "political" stuffs here, I just find it rich (pun intended) that so many people who have put the ultra-wealthy (be it clubs or owners) on a pedestal and rarely missed an opportunity to defend them (or deflect from their shortcomings) are now suddenly anti-rich/anti-greed as though it's opening the Seventh Seal.  For a prime example, look no further than the amount of simping (God, I feel old just using that term) for Bayern going on right now... and this is for a club who, anytime any league competitor gets within 10 points or less of their top spot in a given year, turns around and just buys said clubs top two players (needed or not), abusing gross market inequity.  But hey, let's champion the fact that Bayern didn't jump on board for the Super League... when no German club would have because German clubs are still actually fan-owned, by and large... and, in reality, had they been independently-owned, they absolutely would have.

Well said to be honest. Agree with pretty much everything. The naivety and lack of self awareness of fans and media is staggering. It’s like when a somebody tries to domesticate a lion and ends up devastated and heartbroken because the lion lashed out and did exactly what a lion does. We as fans tell these owners to spend their money and put pressure on them to buy the necessary players to compete yet we are outraged about a potential league which supposedly goes against competition when in actual fact the competition has ceased to exist for years now. Also not like the CL has been reformed millions of times and not like there’s outrage at the UEFAs new reform right? Everyone’s complicit.