RedGold Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, cp0k2 said: My complaint about not working out at the combine isn't because I think they're not competitive or are hiding something or anything absurd like that. I understand why the ones that don't choose not to and it makes sense for them in most cases. I just think those that aren't going to workout shouldn't get a spot, let them do their interviews and measurements at their pro days and give the combine spots to others that want the chance to get in front of NFL scouts. I’d be more for this argument if 320 players didn’t get invited. You already have 50-60 guys more invited than there are picks in the draft. It’s not an honor to attend or do drills anymore. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cp0k2 Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 11 minutes ago, RedGold said: I’d be more for this argument if 320 players didn’t get invited. You already have 50-60 guys more invited than there are picks in the draft. It’s not an honor to attend or do drills anymore. There's a lot of guys that would have had much better draft positions or perhaps been drafted had they been able to participate in the combine. I just think if you go you should participate. Don't want to participate then don't go. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 9 hours ago, goldfishwars said: Yeah it's frustrating not to see what MHJ can do - but really he can only harm his stock by working out Yeah. Exactly. Basically...if he goes through all the drills and posts solid numbers across the board, it's really just checking off boxes like, "yep, we already knew that from the tape". The only thing that could possibly change, is if he botches something or posts an unexpectedly poor result in some drill that gets people to start asking questions and go back to the tape. Basically hurting his stock. Or worse, he suffers an injury in the underwear Olympics that sets him back on starting his NFL transition. There's just nothing to gain for him there. The options are "stock holds steady" or "stock declines". No point. 9 hours ago, tyler735 said: For Marvin Harrison, he probably won't gain much by competing at the combine, but for a Jayden Daniels it absolutely could have an effect on his draft stock. If he lights the place up like Richardson last year it potentially puts him as QB #2 for many teams. Yeah. I do wonder about it from some of the guys who aren't necessarily rock solid locks for Top-5 picks like that. Daniels certainly does have the potential to really show out. His stock actually does have some potential "headroom" to boost into with a great combine. And he's got the athletic tools to potentially ball out. But it's still risky, where he could also hurt his stock if he turns out to be...not quite the athlete people expect, or if he looks uncomfortable throwing to a bunch of random WRs he's never worked with before instead of just "his guys" who are extremely talented, in "his scheme". It is what it is i guess. The Interviews are probably the biggest thing teams want to glean something from at the combine, for a QB especially. And he's still doing that, so...probably not a big deal. Just maybe leaving a little bit on the table out of caution. 5 hours ago, goldfishwars said: Some rumors that Bowers might come in shorter than 6’3. Wouldn't surprise me tbh. He doesn't look very big to me. Not sure it really matters. He's still far and away TE1 in this kind of weak class at the position. I don't think anybody is looking at him as high in the draft as he's likely to go, to be a real "grinder" who spends all his time blocking and digging in the trenches. He's just a big WR who can play a bit of a TE role here and there. That's the skillset he'll be drafted for, and in that...his height hasn't really seemed to hinder him much, and doubtful an inch here or there does much to his NFL fortunes either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 21 hours ago, goldfishwars said: From what I can gather, teams view the Combine like this in terms of priorities: 1. Medicals 2. Interviews 3. Measurements/Weigh Ins 4. Workouts - Which players hitting minimum thresholds. Some matter more than others. Huge workouts are fun to watch, but we've seen teams being less re-active to eye-popping workouts than years gone. Whilst it's fun to predict growth from big athletic numbers, the game is a technique based sport and the tape is king. Processing and reaction times have a huge impact to on-field speed. A workout above/below expected should lead you to re-check the film. Last year was a good case in point, we were all mocking Darnell Washington and Adetomiwa Adebawore in the first round after crazy numbers and the ended up going in the late 3rd and 4th round. This is just a marker to check the tape on any outliers. Creed Humphrey comes to mind as showing athleticism not shown in games. Darnell Washington showed great in tests but his tape was true in that he labors on routes. Draftniks put much more into combine numbers than teams ( for the most part) . You can still hurt your draft with a poor showing in the tests. Steeler fans found that their old GM (Kevin Colbert) was a "stat" guy. If a player put up good stats he like it more than the tests. Tomlin is a SPARQ guy so he puts more value in athletics than stats. Weidl seems to be a good balance in looking at skill. With Tomlin as a SPARQ guy you would think that Washington would have gone higher for the Steelers but the tape won out. Edited February 27 by jebrick 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 11 hours ago, Tugboat said: Yeah. I do wonder about it from some of the guys who aren't necessarily rock solid locks for Top-5 picks like that. Daniels certainly does have the potential to really show out. His stock actually does have some potential "headroom" to boost into with a great combine. And he's got the athletic tools to potentially ball out. But it's still risky, where he could also hurt his stock if he turns out to be...not quite the athlete people expect, or if he looks uncomfortable throwing to a bunch of random WRs he's never worked with before instead of just "his guys" who are extremely talented, in "his scheme". It is what it is i guess. The Interviews are probably the biggest thing teams want to glean something from at the combine, for a QB especially. And he's still doing that, so...probably not a big deal. Just maybe leaving a little bit on the table out of caution. With Daniels, I really like him as a prospect, but this could also be like Justin Fields or Lamar Jackson where fans and media view them higher than NFL scouts do at this stage. Both of them skipped the combine and around this time in the draft process, Fields was viewed as a top 2/top 5 pick. Jackson was also viewed by many as a top 15 pick, but both fell come draft day. Part of me wonders had they put on a show next to their peers at the combine if their draft spots would have changed. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 41 minutes ago, jebrick said: This is just a marker to check the tape on any outliers. Creed Humphrey comes to mind as showing athleticism not shown in games. Darnell Washington showed great in tests but his tape was true in that he labors on routes. Draftniks put much more into combine numbers than teams ( for the most part) . You can still hurt your draft with a poor showing in the tests. Steeler fans found that their old GM (Kevin Colbert) was a "stat" guy. If a player put up good stats he like it more than the tests. Tomlin is a SPARQ guy so he puts more value in athletics than stats. Weidl seems to be a good balance in looking at skill. With Tomlin as a SPARQ guy you would think that Washington would have gone higher for the Steelers but the tape won out. Agreed. The combine is just there to tick boxes. If a guy is a plus athlete, it is a benefit, because plus athletes have higher ceilings. But the fastest WRs and CBs have almost never panned out (I say almost because I can't think of any that have, but I'm sure they exist), and I saw a list of all time bench press record holders in the combine, and none of them were significant NFL players. That said, it's easy to pump up a guy who you had as a late Day 2 or early Day 3 guy who just blows the combine out of the water. It happens every year. Hell, I do it every year. The only players I think it makes sense to fly up rankings are guys that are super raw (because the tape won't show you that much for them; example Guyton), or guys from small schools. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 1 hour ago, jebrick said: This is just a marker to check the tape on any outliers. Creed Humphrey comes to mind as showing athleticism not shown in games. Darnell Washington showed great in tests but his tape was true in that he labors on routes. Draftniks put much more into combine numbers than teams ( for the most part) . You can still hurt your draft with a poor showing in the tests. Steeler fans found that their old GM (Kevin Colbert) was a "stat" guy. If a player put up good stats he like it more than the tests. Tomlin is a SPARQ guy so he puts more value in athletics than stats. Weidl seems to be a good balance in looking at skill. With Tomlin as a SPARQ guy you would think that Washington would have gone higher for the Steelers but the tape won out. Yeah, I think that's right. Outlier athleticism above and beyond should have you re-checking the tape and that's it. Some guys are just average athletes in shorts, but are so smart and process information so quickly on film that there isn't any waste in their game. Other guys just need to be in the heat of battle for their athleticism to come out. Josh Allen ran a 4.75 forty and he's blown by guys in games. @tyler735 does make a fair point that some teams are at least using athleticism as a baseline - although not sure last year's Saints draft is example I'd want to hold up as it being the example course to take. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 33 minutes ago, Daniel said: The only players I think it makes sense to fly up rankings are guys that are super raw (because the tape won't show you that much for them; example Guyton), or guys from small schools. Even then it is just showing Boom/Bust. Super Athletes with no "skills" have the low floor but high ceiling if you can train them up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daniel Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, jebrick said: Even then it is just showing Boom/Bust. Super Athletes with no "skills" have the low floor but high ceiling if you can train them up. Of course. But we, outside of the NFL, generally don't know who the super athletes with boom/bust potential are until the combine. That's all I mean. Obviously, some dudes like Xavier Worthy or JPJ show crazy athletic traits on tape, but every year, multiple prospects surprise us. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 46 minutes ago, Daniel said: Agreed. The combine is just there to tick boxes. If a guy is a plus athlete, it is a benefit, because plus athletes have higher ceilings. But the fastest WRs and CBs have almost never panned out (I say almost because I can't think of any that have, but I'm sure they exist), and I saw a list of all time bench press record holders in the combine, and none of them were significant NFL players. That said, it's easy to pump up a guy who you had as a late Day 2 or early Day 3 guy who just blows the combine out of the water. It happens every year. Hell, I do it every year. The only players I think it makes sense to fly up rankings are guys that are super raw (because the tape won't show you that much for them; example Guyton), or guys from small schools. Yeah, small school and guys who have played a low volume of snaps are definitely worth noting a little if they blow up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 (edited) 21 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: @tyler735 does make a fair point that some teams are at least using athleticism as a baseline - although not sure last year's Saints draft is example I'd want to hold up as it being the example course to take. Honestly last year was pretty solid for us. Not a crazy good draft like our 2017 class was, but should help this team going forward with some young talented players. Bryan Bresee looks like he will be good for a long time at DT for us. Foskey looks like a bust. Kendre Miller looked good when healthy and closed the season out with a nice performance. Should be our RB of the future. Saldiveri had a disappointing rookie season. Jake Haener is likely a career backup QB. Jordan Howden is looking like a steal and looked solid in his appearances as a DB for us this. Potential starter next year. AT Perry also was looking solid during the final stretch of the season and has a good shot at being our WR #3 going into next season. Foskey and Saldiveri look like whiffs, but 4-5 other guys we drafted look to be very much in the fold to be contributors for us next season. Edited February 27 by tyler735 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goldfishwars Posted February 27 Author Share Posted February 27 2 minutes ago, tyler735 said: Honestly last year was pretty solid for us. Not a crazy good draft like our 2017 class was, but should help this team going forward with some young talented players. Bryan Bresee looks like he will be good for a long time at DT for us. Foskey looks like a bust. Kendre Miller looked good when healthy and closed the season out with a nice performance. Should be our RB of the future. Saldiveri had a disappointing rookie season. Jake Haener is likely a career backup QB. Jordan Howden is looking like a steal and looked solid in his appearances as a DB for us this. Potential starter next year. AT Perry also was looking solid during the final stretch of the season and has a good shot at being our WR #3 going into next season. Foskey and Saldiveri look like whiffs, but 4-5 other guys we drafted look to be very much in the fold to be contributors for us next season. Fair enough, forgot about snagging Perry that late and didn’t know much about Howden. Man I really didn’t Foskey last year and no RAS score was gonna convince me otherwise. Miller still looks a little overdrafted. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tyler735 Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 3 minutes ago, goldfishwars said: Fair enough, forgot about snagging Perry that late and didn’t know much about Howden. Man I really didn’t Foskey last year and no RAS score was gonna convince me otherwise. Miller still looks a little overdrafted. Yeah the optimist in me wanted to buy in on the production and better than expected athleticism on Foskey, but he just looked overmatched last season. Would love for him to prove me wrong, but he probably doesn't make it through his rookie contract unless there is a drastic year 1 to year 2 jump. Kendre Miller is a little bit of a mystery still because of his injury setbacks. Our run game scheme being garbage didn't do him many favors either as all of our RB's struggled a bit at times. I will say that Kendre was noticeably our most explosive RB last year. On just 51 touches he had 2 of them go for 30+ yards (plus another big play in preseason). Kamara during the entire season had 3 plays of 20+ yards (0 plays of 30+ yards). I wouldn't be surprised if Kamara was moved on from in the offseason giving Miller a prime opportunity to be our feature back. Unless they can figure out a significant restructure for Kamara this offseason. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jebrick Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 I am kind of bummed that they moved OL/DL to Sunday. I guess they want to see those high 40 numbers early to "grab" folk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tugboat Posted February 27 Share Posted February 27 4 hours ago, jebrick said: I am kind of bummed that they moved OL/DL to Sunday. I guess they want to see those high 40 numbers early to "grab" folk They moved the Ball Kickers to Sunday too. So they can still close with a bang. Big finale when all the Elite Athletes come out. 🙂 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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