The 2018 Kirk Cousins Megathread

[Skins212689]

58 minutes ago, since72 said:

OK  First of all, this "forum" doesn't have to decide ANYTHING.  At least not for a non-Viking fan visiting our forum.  We have a nice diversity of backgrounds, opinions, and expertise which I have come to appreciate.  What would be the point of having this concensus?  It won't change anything the Vikings FO has done or will do.

Maybe if you had been visiting after the 2017 season, you would have found many posts raising the the same questions that you do.  There was vigorous discussion about who we should keep or should we draft or should we pick up a free agent.  Who gives us the best chance of success.  One of our members that lives in Virginia gave us the run-down on Kirk's choking against good teams.  We knew what we were getting.  We don't need you coming here and rubbing our nose in it.  Forum members are being defensive toward you NOT because they think Cousins is great.  They are defensive because you are making personal attacks.  You make it seem like we are personally responsible for what the Viking FO does.  You make it seem like the Vikings have a losing culture because we don't care enough.  Wrong on all counts.

I'm old enough to have seen a HOF QB lead the Vikings to three Super Bowls in four years.  I was devastated by each SB loss.  Especially the last one, when my boyhood hero HOF QB GUARANTEED a win in the Super Bowl.  Minnesota fans would give anything, even their best set of jumper cables, to have a SB win.  I don't know where you get the idea that we're complacent about winning.  I don't know why you're trying to portray the Viking franchise as a losing culture.  During the Super Bowl era, here are the number of playoff appearances for the NFC North:

Vikings = 29 seasons made the playoffs (52 seasons)

Packers = 23

Bears = 15

Lions = 12

Let's compare that to teams you think have a "winning" culture...

Cowboys = 33

Steelers = 30

Vikings = 29

Pats = 25

49ers = 24

Colts = 24

Rams = 23

Eagles = 22

Seahawks = 17 (43 seasons)

Vikings in Super Bowl Era

31 winning seasons

7 Even seasons

14 losing seasons

Yeah, that's what a losing culture looks like.

I think part of the perception problem is caused by the fact that most of the footballs future forum members (all team forums) are overly analytical and not your typical rah-rah cheerleader types.  In fact, being called a "homer" (blind loyalty) is the biggest insult you can give to a member.  Your average member is crunching combine numbers, referencing PFF grades, and trying to out-mock Mel Kiper.  Doesn't mean we don't want a Super Bowl.  Bigly.

Any disrespect you may have felt by my comments I apologize to you for. Yet I stand by my basic points Kirk Cousin's was never worth the highest guarnteed contract in NFL history and is not a QB I would depend on in a must win against ELITE competition. Also if the Vikings don't go as far as they did with Keenum at QB proves my point even further. 

My post asking "Fans" do they want Stats or SuperBowls I feel is a fair question when making my argument against All the Kirk Cousin lovers (including those in the Redskins forum and NFL) who try to defend his contract with his stats. Then make excuses why he never seems to succeed against Above Average competition, yet other's don't get that pass. 

Dalvin Cook is putting up Stats similar to Peterson's MVP season but would get blasted for asking for 84 million guaranteed. All this to say the league needs to make some major changes in the way they structure contracts for the player's. All Elite Player's should get Elite Money not just all QB's.

The QB you mentioned who lost 3 SuperBowls deserved 84 million guaranteed before Kirk Cousin's sir. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Skins212689

[wcblack34]

This question of Stats vs. Super Bowls is patently stupid. Each year, 2 QBs make the Super Bowl. One wins. So 30 other teams can be asked about stats v. Super Bowls.

Right now the Vikings have a great shot at the playoffs. Let's revisit this discussion after they win/lose in the playoffs. It might actually be valid then.  

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by wcblack34
fat fingered spelling

[Skins212689]

52 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I personally agree. The elite truly elite QBs are underpaid but they have driven the market up enough to where the good QBs are overpaid. Before we signed Cousins I was for offering Brees a two year $70M deal. Given that, I can't say that I have a problem with the Vikings spending $28M a year on Cousins. Still, I feel that the value Cousins adds to the team does not match the value of his contract.

It is what it is though. The Vikings don't have that level of control over the market. They can only choose to pay market price or build the team a different way by going with a cheaper option. Personally, I would be drafting QBs more often than the Vikings draft them and starting a combination of journeyman (think Keenum or Fitzpatrick) and the draft picks until I found an elite QB. In the meantime, I would be pouring the savings from the QB position into building an elite offensive line. For I believe than an elite offensive line can make a very solid offense with a Dalton line level QB, which is always about the level that I have felt Kirk Cousins is.

Rick Spielman's team building philosophy is very much different than mine. I sat and watched it for several years and bit my tongue before I started saying earlier this year that I want him fired. I was open to the possibility that his team building philosophy would work until it was proven several times over again that it wasn't. He stuck with it this year and now I want him gone.

Kirk Cousins is a decent NFL QB IMO. I do think that a team can win with him. But I think that will only happen with an elite offensive line. His contract makes it hard for the Vikings to have an elite offensive line. They don't have enough money to sign the premium free agents that are needed, especially when priority is continually given to other non-QB positions over OL.

Until the offseason there is no reason for me to now enjoy watching Cousins and the team. It beats the alternative. I do not believe that the current constitution of the Vikings, Kirk Cousins and all, has what it takes to consistently win in the playoffs. 

But, almost no NFL team can consistently win in the Playoffs. That is a very hard thing to do. Getting a first round bye is super important because winning two games in a row with at least one being a home game is a lot more likely than winning three mostly road games in a row for any NFL team.  However, anything can happen so if the team can't get a bye then just getting into the playoffs is the next best thing that I am going to root for. I am not a subscriber to the tanking mentality. I do not believe that Kirk Cousins can consistently win against playoff competition with the current Vikings team but all it takes is a few games.

So sure, Kirk Cousins is overpaid IMO. I do not disagree with that at all. So are the other non-elite QBs that helped built up the market. There is nothing that I can do about that now. I do not blindly support Kirk Cousins but I also don't go overboard when he has one of his trash games. Even then I see him as a Dalton line level QB. I do not believe Kirk Cousins is the main problem with the Vikings right now. He is fine. I hope that it is okay to see it that way even while agreeing that the market for QBs of that level is grossly out of whack with the value those QBs bring to teams.

That's a great take. Seems pretty clear to me, you wouldn't be a guy to come and blame others for Cousin's inabilities come time to meet those Elite teams. Case and point how his Stats drastically are different in the loses the Vikings had this year against Greenbay and the Bears compared to his numbers the rest of the season. Yet those 2 games didn't erase his Stats being among top 5-10 in complection percentage, least INTs, TD's, and QBR. 

[vikesfan89]

18 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

Any disrespect you may have felt by my comments I apologize to you for. Yet I stand by my basic points Kirk Cousin's was never worth the highest guarnteed contract in NFL history and is not a QB I would depend on in a must win against ELITE competition. Also if the Vikings don't go as far as they did with Keenum at QB proves my point even further. 

My post asking "Fans" do they want Stats or SuperBowls I feel is a fair question when making my argument against All the Kirk Cousin lovers (including those in the Redskins forum and NFL) who try to defend his contract with his stats. Then make excuses why he never seems to succeed against Above Average competition, yet other's don't get that pass. 

Dalvin Cook is putting up Stats similar to Peterson's MVP season but would get blasted for asking for 84 million guaranteed. All this to say the league needs to make some major changes in the way they structure contracts for the player's. All Elite Player's should get Elite Money not just all QB's.

The QB you mentioned who lost 3 SuperBowls deserved 84 million guaranteed before Kirk Cousin's sir. 

How many super bowls did Adrian Peterson win with his elite contract

[vikesfan89]

Apparently Peterson was underpaid because he wasn't paid as much as the elite quarterbacks.

Or was he over paid because he didn't win a super bowl? 

[Skins212689]

20 minutes ago, wcblack34 said:

This question of Stats vs. Super Bowls is patently stupid. Each year, 2 QBs make the Super Bowl. One wins. So 30 other teams can be asked about stats v. Super Bowls.

Right now the Vikings have a great shot at the playoffs. Let's revisit this discussion after they win/lose in the playoffs. It might actually be valid then.  

 

Ok what about Playoff wins?

[Skins212689]

14 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

How many super bowls did Adrian Peterson win with his elite contract

How many playoff Wins did you have with Peterson? Also as said give Peterson the same excuses that come with the QB. Who was his QB, What about the Defense. Come on, be fair people. Also Peterson numbers didn't decline when facing Elite competition, nethier has Cook. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Skins212689

[sparkyjoe1]

59 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

Any disrespect you may have felt by my comments I apologize to you for. Yet I stand by my basic points Kirk Cousin's was never worth the highest guarnteed contract in NFL history and is not a QB I would depend on in a must win against ELITE competition. Also if the Vikings don't go as far as they did with Keenum at QB proves my point even further. 

My post asking "Fans" do they want Stats or SuperBowls I feel is a fair question when making my argument against All the Kirk Cousin lovers (including those in the Redskins forum and NFL) who try to defend his contract with his stats. Then make excuses why he never seems to succeed against Above Average competition, yet other's don't get that pass. 

Dalvin Cook is putting up Stats similar to Peterson's MVP season but would get blasted for asking for 84 million guaranteed. All this to say the league needs to make some major changes in the way they structure contracts for the player's. All Elite Player's should get Elite Money not just all QB's.

The QB you mentioned who lost 3 SuperBowls deserved 84 million guaranteed before Kirk Cousin's sir. 

Good stats and success (playoffs/superbowl) do not have to be mutually exclusive.  Right now, our QB is putting up good stats and the Vikings are benefitting by having success.  We can have it both ways, even with Cousins...

[vikesfan89]

28 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

How many playoff Wins did you have with Peterson? Also as said give Peterson the same excuses that come with the QB. Who was his QB, What about the Defense. Come on, be fair people. Also Peterson numbers didn't decline when facing Elite competition, nethier has Cook. 

You're saying that cook and Peterson haven't had bad games? Ok then

Cousins would be the best QB that Peterson had other than the 1 year of Favre. I'm just trying to figure out why you think that an elite player at any position should get paid the same as an elite quarterback while also putting the success of the team solely on the quarterback

[Skins212689]

19 minutes ago, vikesfan89 said:

You're saying that cook and Peterson haven't had bad games? Ok then

Cousins would be the best QB that Peterson had other than the 1 year of Favre. I'm just trying to figure out why you think that an elite player at any position should get paid the same as an elite quarterback while also putting the success of the team solely on the quarterback

You do get what I'm saying and that's cool. I'll just agree to disagree with you.I don't put the success of the season all on the QB. The league, most fans, and most analysts put the success of the Season/Team all on the QB like other positions don't matter. That's why I say ELITE talent should get paid not just the QB. A bad game is totally different than, consistently being bad versus Elite competition. Wish you a happy season. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Skins212689

[Skins212689]

12 minutes ago, sparkyjoe1 said:

Good stats and success (playoffs/superbowl) do not have to be mutually exclusive.  Right now, our QB is putting up good stats and the Vikings are benefitting by having success.  We can have it both ways, even with Cousins...

If that success ends come Playoff time and your fine with that, Cool that's your right to have that opinion. I'm just not 1 to root for that. I want Superbowls. To get Those, you have to have that regualr season success continue come playoff time. 

[vikesfan89]

1 minute ago, Skins212689 said:

You do get what I'm saying and that's cool. I'll just agree to disagree with you. Wish you a happy season. 

I get what you are saying but it makes no sense to me so agreeing to disagree is wise. 

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

I do not believe that the current constitution of the Vikings, Kirk Cousins and all, has what it takes to consistently win in the playoffs. 

But, almost no NFL team can consistently win in the Playoffs.

So if almost no team can consistently win in the playoffs, why do you want to fire the GM just because he hasn't accomplished something that basically no one has accomplished?

2 hours ago, Cearbhall said:

Kirk Cousins is overpaid IMO. I do not disagree with that at all. So are the other non-elite QBs that helped built up the market. There is nothing that I can do about that now.

I think if you compare what non-elite franchise QBs make (Ryan, Stafford, Cousins, etc) with the next tier of cheaper veteran QBs (Foles, Flacco, Keenum 2018, etc), the difference is more than worth paying. The tradeoff between spending $6M more on a QB (Cousins vs Flacco) instead of an OL (say, Zeitler vs Kline) is in favor of the better QB. There really isn't any other position where an additional $6M per year will make that kind of difference on the team's overall performance. 

So in that sense, Cousins and other veteran QBs are not overpaid.

 

[Krauser]

2 hours ago, Torchezim said:

The majority of the fan base nowadays certainly does seem to be happy as long as we are competitive. 

It's not that. 

It's that all you can tell at this stage of the season is if a team is competitive or not. You can't tell yet if they'll be good enough to win a playoff game, let alone the Super Bowl. 

So being happy that the Vikings are competitive, 10 weeks into a season, is a reasonable position. Concluding that the season is another failure (and thus previous decisions were mistakes and changes must be made), when in fact they're competitive and the season is only 10 weeks old, is not. 

It's not exactly a risky bet, saying that any non-Patriots team will fail to win the Super Bowl in any given year (roughly a 13/14 chance right now for the Vikings, and a 19/20 chance for any good team heading into the season).

But I think it's tiresome when fans pretend to know how the season will play out, especially when all their predictions are for doom and gloom, without seeming to account for how the situation has already evolved and is now different than their previous set of doomy-gloomy predictions. You don't have to try so hard to stay ahead of the curve in knowing how sad everyone's going to be, eventually. Yes, yes -- everyone dies and life is pain and suffering is meaningless. But cheer up, football is here to entertain and divert us. Just watch the game, and cheer for your team, and see what happens. You can even be happy if they win. 

It is not that everything is perfect or that success is guaranteed. It's that the Vikings are pretty good right now, and we have to wait and see how the rest of the season plays out before declaring victory or defeat.

I don't understand why so many posters haven't changed their take on the team, the QB, the coaches and the front office, after such a successful first 10 games of the year. Check your calendars: it's November 2019 and the Vikings are good this year.

[since72]

24 minutes ago, Krauser said:

It's not that. 

It's that all you can tell...

You're such a homer.

Why don't you try posting some statistical analysis sometime instead of all this rah-rah stuff.