The 2018 Kirk Cousins Megathread

[swede700]

16 hours ago, Torchezim said:

Why are you comparing Cousins to Wentz? Again.  
 

Wentz is the better QB. Wentz beats good teams a lot given how long he has been in the league. Cousins is a very highly paid game manager. 
 

We are stuck with him so I hope for the best. But in no way have any of your comparisons helped Cousin’s case on this matter. 

In your opinion is Wentz better.  I've watched him several times, and he hasn't impressed me any more than Cousins did when he was in Washington.  I think he's highly overrated.  

[swede700]

2 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

Just make sure you guy's judge all NFL player's like this. People wanted to bring up Dwayne Haskins, look at all the BS he has to deal with in DC. Starting with a Owner that may have picked him oppose to the HC. That's not how you Win in this league. 

No one here has suggested that Dwayne Haskins has anything to do with this...and yes, he's been put in an extremely difficult situation.  It's very similar to the situation that Josh Rosen has been put in.  Hopefully, those situations will be able to settle down so we can all see what their actual potential is...but that has absolutely nothing to do with Cousins.  

[swede700]

16 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

His 107 is not fully guaranteed. Also Wentz has proven to have the ability to beat Winning teams and lead a team to the Playoffs. 2017 Eagles 13-3. 

If your fine being average and paying a guy 84 million guranteed, that's cool. I just Won't be the 1 to agree with you. 

He lead a team for most of the season that got to the playoffs, but the criteria was whether he won a playoff game and a Super Bowl.  He's done neither.  And he had a far superior cast around him, as was evident with Foles.  His 107M is guaranteed as long as he is on the roster.  Unless they happen to cut him anytime soon, he's getting $107M.  Kirk is not.  

 

Edited November 14, 2019 by swede700

[twslhs20]

10 minutes ago, swede700 said:

He lead a team to the playoffs, but the criteria was whether he won a playoff game and a Super Bowl.  He's done neither.  And he had a far superior cast around him, as was evident with Foles.  His 107M is guaranteed as long as he is on the roster.  Unless they happen to cut him anytime soon, he's getting $107M.  Kirk is not.

I think Wentz has more upside than Cousins, but I'd put them in the same tier.

That offense has looked vastly different with D Jax out of the offense, and Wentz can't seem to elevate the play of his other WRs

[since72]

9 hours ago, twslhs20 said:

Cousins is a mediocre QB on a bad contract. I've spent years on this forum arguing these same points against  Jackson, Frerotte Ponder, Cassel, and Bradford. I wasn't for Keenum either but he out kicked his coverage.

Most people here are happy with a playoff appearance or single playoff win. Cousins isn't the answer for anyone that watches football, but he is sunk cost at the moment.

Fact is Spielman hasn't been able to fix the revolving door of garbage QB play in his entire tenure here. Until we get a GM that can build a proper scouting department to correctly evaluate QB talent, this team will be a waste of special individuals. Just like it wasted APs best years.

I think this post is spot on.

Except for the part "Most people here are happy with a playoff appearance or single playoff win".  If this were true, we wouldn't still be bitchin about Drew Pearson, Darrin Nelson, Gary Anderson, taking the knee, forty-one doughnut, Bountygate, etc. etc. etc.  Having actually watched a HOF QB lead the Vikings to 3 Superbowls in 4 years time, I can assure you NOBODY in Minnesota was saying "oh well, I'm happy because they won a playoff game", except maybe Sid Hartman.

Otherwise, your post is an extremely precise and concise summary of the Kirk Cousins situation.

[Krauser]

18 hours ago, vikingsrule said:

 I don’t think calling consecutive run plays on 2nd and 3rd down was good playcalling given how successful Prescott was on that drive moving the ball through the air while starting the drive deep in their own territory.

Both of those calls were RPOs -- here's the video, should load to the specific plays: 

So that's not exactly taking the game out of Prescott's hands.

[JDBrocks]

9 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

He isn't carrying you guys in the season. Pull up a Guy named Dalvin Cook stats. Another person more concerned about STATS than Championships. 

Literally LOL'ed at telling someone to look up a player's stats as justification for one point, and then criticizing said person for being more concerned about stats than championships.

[since72]

18 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

Agree to Disagree than. You payed Cousins 84 million to get you no SuperBowls of Playoff Wins. I'm not down for that. 

See, this is a very neat debating tactic that everyone should have in their repertoire.

By personalizing the Cousins contract, you put me in a double-bind. 

If I choose to disagree with your premise (Cousins is overpaid), then I'm put in the impossible position of trying to prove Cousins is an ELITE quarterback. 

If I agree with your premise, I still lose, because I paid Cousins 84 million, and I negotiated the contract, and I didn't draft a HOF QB in the 2018 draft instead of signing Cousins.  If I agree with you, I'm an idiot GM.

Sorry, I'm not letting you put me in that situation.

I am not Rick Spielman.  I don't have $84 million to give to anyone.  Based on the number of tickets and Vikings merchandise I've bought in the past two years, it's safe to say that I've paid Cousins $0.

I am simply not emotionally invested in how Zygi Wilf spends his fortune.  You seem to be.  And I won't let you get me emotionally involved by making me responsible for the Vikings Front Office decisions.

Edited November 14, 2019 by since72

[Vikes_Bolts1228]

10 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

I'm gonna try to stay away until Playoff Time. Enjoy the rest of the season guys. 

Congrats! You made it 7 hours!

[Skins212689]

4 hours ago, since72 said:

See, this is a very neat debating tactic that everyone should have in their repertoire.

By personalizing the Cousins contract, you put me in a double-bind. 

If I choose to disagree with your premise (Cousins is overpaid), then I'm put in the impossible position of trying to prove Cousins is an ELITE quarterback. 

If I agree with your premise, I still lose, because I paid Cousins 84 million, and I negotiated the contract, and I didn't draft a HOF QB in the 2018 draft instead of signing Cousins.  If I agree with you, I'm an idiot GM.

Sorry, I'm not letting you put me in that situation.

I am not Rick Spielman.  I don't have $84 million to give to anyone.  Based on the number of tickets and Vikings merchandise I've bought in the past two years, it's safe to say that I've paid Cousins $0.

I am simply not emotionally invested in how Zygi Wilf spends his fortune.  You seem to be.  And I won't let you get me emotionally involved by making me responsible for the Vikings Front Office decisions.

You took that way too personal. Of course I know your not the guy paying Kirk 84 million. I thought you'd get where I was going without taking it so direct. 

Our definition of ELITE is different. As someone pointed out, I suggested there are only about 7 Elite QB's in the league but All QB's get Elite type contracts,  I'm not a fan of that. Those 7 Elite QB'S are the only one's who should get that type of money for carrying there teams, while the rest of teams should pay THEIR ELITE player's carrying their team QB type money despite the fact they aren't QB's. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Skins212689

[since72]

14 hours ago, Skins212689 said:

Wilson should really have 2, but FACTS he only has 1. 

Maybe the forum should decide do you Want Stats or Playoff wins that eventually will lead to SuperBowls?

Even if Kirk never got a Superbowl but came out this deal with 3 playoff wins I'd say he lived up to the deal. But no Playoff Wins at all would be UNACCEPTABLE. So Far that's what where at. While his play against ELITE team's doesn't match his play against below average/average teams.

OK  First of all, this "forum" doesn't have to decide ANYTHING.  At least not for a non-Viking fan visiting our forum.  We have a nice diversity of backgrounds, opinions, and expertise which I have come to appreciate.  What would be the point of having this concensus?  It won't change anything the Vikings FO has done or will do.

Maybe if you had been visiting after the 2017 season, you would have found many posts raising the the same questions that you do.  There was vigorous discussion about who we should keep or should we draft or should we pick up a free agent.  Who gives us the best chance of success.  One of our members that lives in Virginia gave us the run-down on Kirk's choking against good teams.  We knew what we were getting.  We don't need you coming here and rubbing our nose in it.  Forum members are being defensive toward you NOT because they think Cousins is great.  They are defensive because you are making personal attacks.  You make it seem like we are personally responsible for what the Viking FO does.  You make it seem like the Vikings have a losing culture because we don't care enough.  Wrong on all counts.

I'm old enough to have seen a HOF QB lead the Vikings to three Super Bowls in four years.  I was devastated by each SB loss.  Especially the last one, when my boyhood hero HOF QB GUARANTEED a win in the Super Bowl.  Minnesota fans would give anything, even their best set of jumper cables, to have a SB win.  I don't know where you get the idea that we're complacent about winning.  I don't know why you're trying to portray the Viking franchise as a losing culture.  During the Super Bowl era, here are the number of playoff appearances for the NFC North:

Vikings = 29 seasons made the playoffs (52 seasons)

Packers = 23

Bears = 15

Lions = 12

Let's compare that to teams you think have a "winning" culture...

Cowboys = 33

Steelers = 30

Vikings = 29

Pats = 25

49ers = 24

Colts = 24

Rams = 23

Eagles = 22

Seahawks = 17 (43 seasons)

Vikings in Super Bowl Era

31 winning seasons

7 Even seasons

14 losing seasons

Yeah, that's what a losing culture looks like.

I think part of the perception problem is caused by the fact that most of the footballs future forum members (all team forums) are overly analytical and not your typical rah-rah cheerleader types.  In fact, being called a "homer" (blind loyalty) is the biggest insult you can give to a member.  Your average member is crunching combine numbers, referencing PFF grades, and trying to out-mock Mel Kiper.  Doesn't mean we don't want a Super Bowl.  Bigly.

Edited November 14, 2019 by since72
Missed a critical word.

[Cearbhall]

34 minutes ago, Skins212689 said:

I suggested there are only about 7 Elite QB's in the league but All get Elite type contracts,  I'm not a fan of that. Those 7 Elite QB'S are the only one's who should get that type of money

I personally agree. The elite truly elite QBs are underpaid but they have driven the market up enough to where the good QBs are overpaid. Before we signed Cousins I was for offering Brees a two year $70M deal. Given that, I can't say that I have a problem with the Vikings spending $28M a year on Cousins. Still, I feel that the value Cousins adds to the team does not match the value of his contract.

It is what it is though. The Vikings don't have that level of control over the market. They can only choose to pay market price or build the team a different way by going with a cheaper option. Personally, I would be drafting QBs more often than the Vikings draft them and starting a combination of journeyman (think Keenum or Fitzpatrick) and the draft picks until I found an elite QB. In the meantime, I would be pouring the savings from the QB position into building an elite offensive line. For I believe than an elite offensive line can make a very solid offense with a Dalton line level QB, which is always about the level that I have felt Kirk Cousins is.

Rick Spielman's team building philosophy is very much different than mine. I sat and watched it for several years and bit my tongue before I started saying earlier this year that I want him fired. I was open to the possibility that his team building philosophy would work until it was proven several times over again that it wasn't. He stuck with it this year and now I want him gone.

Kirk Cousins is a decent NFL QB IMO. I do think that a team can win with him. But I think that will only happen with an elite offensive line. His contract makes it hard for the Vikings to have an elite offensive line. They don't have enough money to sign the premium free agents that are needed, especially when priority is continually given to other non-QB positions over OL.

Until the offseason there is no reason for me to now enjoy watching Cousins and the team. It beats the alternative. I do not believe that the current constitution of the Vikings, Kirk Cousins and all, has what it takes to consistently win in the playoffs. 

But, almost no NFL team can consistently win in the Playoffs. That is a very hard thing to do. Getting a first round bye is super important because winning two games in a row with at least one being a home game is a lot more likely than winning three mostly road games in a row for any NFL team.  However, anything can happen so if the team can't get a bye then just getting into the playoffs is the next best thing that I am going to root for. I am not a subscriber to the tanking mentality. I do not believe that Kirk Cousins can consistently win against playoff competition with the current Vikings team but all it takes is a few games.

So sure, Kirk Cousins is overpaid IMO. I do not disagree with that at all. So are the other non-elite QBs that helped built up the market. There is nothing that I can do about that now. I do not blindly support Kirk Cousins but I also don't go overboard when he has one of his trash games. Even then I see him as a Dalton line level QB. I do not believe Kirk Cousins is the main problem with the Vikings right now. He is fine. I hope that it is okay to see it that way even while agreeing that the market for QBs of that level is grossly out of whack with the value those QBs bring to teams.

[Torchezim]

2 hours ago, swede700 said:

In your opinion is Wentz better.  I've watched him several times, and he hasn't impressed me any more than Cousins did when he was in Washington.  I think he's highly overrated.  

I feel the exact same about Cousins.  We aren’t going to agree. Which is perfectly fine.  I am just not going to be blind to this organization’s shortcomings though. 

Edited November 14, 2019 by Torchezim

[TENINCH]

Vikings are 7-3 and their QB Kirk Cousins is playing as good as any other QB in the NFL. I'm just going to sit back and enjoy it. I love our coach, GM, and our Owners. I love our stadium and training facilities. I think the owners are working on something special. It may happen this year or 5 years from now.

I'm not going to ***** about this team or QB like they are 3-7. There's nothing to complain about with this team. 10 weeks in and they are one of the best teams in the NFL and are good enough to beat anyone.

I'd rather ***** about the Refs helping out our biggest rivals out in what 4 games this season? Games the Packers should have lost. Packers should be in 2nd place at best. That's what I'm pissed off about.

[Torchezim]

6 minutes ago, Cearbhall said:

I personally agree. The elite truly elite QBs are underpaid but they have driven the market up enough to where the good QBs are overpaid. Before we signed Cousins I was for offering Brees a two year $70M deal. Given that, I can't say that I have a problem with the Vikings spending $28M a year on Cousins. Still, I feel that the value Cousins adds to the team does not match the value of his contract.

It is what it is though. The Vikings don't have that level of control over the market. They can only choose to pay market price or build the team a different way by going with a cheaper option. Personally, I would be drafting QBs more often than the Vikings draft them and starting a combination of journeyman (think Keenum or Fitzpatrick) and the draft picks until I found an elite QB. In the meantime, I would be pouring the savings from the QB position into building an elite offensive line. For I believe than an elite offensive line can make a very solid offense with a Dalton line level QB, which is always about the level that I have felt Kirk Cousins is.

Rick Spielman's team building philosophy is very much different than mine. I sat and watched it for several years and bit my tongue before I started saying earlier this year that I want him fired. I was open to the possibility that his team building philosophy would work until it was proven several times over again that it wasn't. He stuck with it this year and now I want him gone.

Kirk Cousins is a decent NFL QB IMO. I do think that a team can win with him. But I think that will only happen with an elite offensive line. His contract makes it hard for the Vikings to have an elite offensive line. They don't have enough money to sign the premium free agents that are needed, especially when priority is continually given to other non-QB positions over OL.

Until the offseason there is no reason for me to now enjoy watching Cousins and the team. It beats the alternative. I do not believe that the current constitution of the Vikings, Kirk Cousins and all, has what it takes to consistently win in the playoffs. 

But, almost no NFL team can consistently win in the Playoffs. That is a very hard thing to do. Getting a first round bye is super important because winning two games in a row with at least one being a home game is a lot more likely than winning three mostly road games in a row for any NFL team.  However, anything can happen so if the team can't get a bye then just getting into the playoffs is the next best thing that I am going to root for. I am not a subscriber to the tanking mentality. I do not believe that Kirk Cousins can consistently win against playoff competition with the current Vikings team but all it takes is a few games.

So sure, Kirk Cousins is overpaid IMO. I do not disagree with that at all. So are the other non-elite QBs that helped built up the market. There is nothing that I can do about that now. I do not blindly support Kirk Cousins but I also don't go overboard when he has one of his trash games. Even then I see him as a Dalton line level QB. I do not believe Kirk Cousins is the main problem with the Vikings right now. He is fine. I hope that it is okay to see it that way even while agreeing that the market for QBs of that level is grossly out of whack with the value those QBs bring to teams.

Which is sad.  
 

26 minutes ago, since72 said:

You make it seem like the Vikings have a losing culture because we don't care enough. 

I’ve been guilty of this assertion as well though. I’m not personally blaming any one person(s) though. The majority of the fan base nowadays certainly does seem to be happy as long as we are competitive.