2019 Draft Talk (Draft Order in OP)

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 hours ago, Forge said:

Haskins sounds like he may be going back as well. Nothing confirmed, I'm pretty sure yet, but he posted on Mike Weber's timeline when he declared asking him to come back for another year. I'm guessing that he's still evaluating at this point. He recevied a first round grade from the draft eval, and he'd certainly be the top quarterback (not so sure he wouldn't have been anyway). 

I think that Herbert going back is a big help to us depending on the final draft order. If Haskins goes back as well, we are screwed, but having only one top 10 type quarterback with at least two quarterback needy teams in the top 10 will drive value based on supply / demand. The problem is, we may be too high right now with the Giants, Jags and Washington picking 8/9/16. There's no need to trade all the way up to 2 / 3. The Jags can trade up to 5 or so to ensure they get their guy over the Giants. 

That is true. If Haskins declares, then we are in prime position to trade down if we get the 3rd pick. If we get the 2nd pick then I guess it depends on what AZ does. If they go either Williams, then we can stay put and take Bosa. If AZ goes Bosa, we can trade down and accumulate more picks. 

[John232]

10 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

So when we sign a edge in free agency(which we will), then what's the argument

No game changing DE short of Dee Ford is hitting Free agency, and even if one does, I seriously doubt we're going to land them short of an obscene overpay. So we will need at least one more. We have 0 good edge rushers. Cannot emphasize this point first and foremost. 

 

 

You can't double two interior guys into today's game, Your run game will be non-existent and someone's getting home as you move a safety or nickelback closer to the box.  Blitz either the A and B gaps and the

Says who?  I mean, you could make an argument that between Blair, Buckner, Armstead and Thomas from the inside, we have a pretty damn good duo on the interior and we still have a horrible pass-rush. When you have non-functional edge rushers. 1 average Edge rusher acquired in Free Agency only mitigates this issue some of the time. 

QB is getting killed all day.

They are if they're statues. Otherwise they're going to break outside the pocket and feast on broken plays. The Reason why teams always prefer an elite edge rusher paired with an elite DT is they work off eachother. two Elite DT's, though beautiful, will always mean less if we don't have two good edge players.

Much easier to chip or double team a guy along the edge than upfront because that means your taking another O-Lineman away from someone else and asking a TE to block a edge guy, 1-on-1. Especially with all the stunts and loops you could pull off. Two dominant guys in the interior creates all kinds problems for offenses. Say we go out and sign a Dee Ford or a Brandon Graham or a Z'Darius Smith in free agency. You add them to a interior front of DeFo and Williams and it completely transforms the front seven. 

Two dominant guys absolutely helps. You know what's better? Having a dominant edge and a dominant DT. Imagine having a DE you can't chip, you can't leave one on one with a tackle and is fully capable of stunting inside. None of those guys listed are capable of that (the edges). BG MAYBE, but age is catching up with him and he's never been a super dominant edge guy. Beastly, but not what we need. And maybe I'm not making myself clear or misunderstanding, but that whole reason you illustrated as to why it's easier to block someone on the edge is the exact reason why we need at least two edge players. That has been a massive problem for us. 

Like I've said before, I won't be mad at all if it's a edge guy. But outside of Bosa, there is uncertainty there.

There's uncertatiy even with a top tier prospect like Bosa and Williams. Amobi Okoye was dominant af in college and flamed out, largely due to his age. Not always a possitive thing in my opinion. Or another great example of a young prospect getting the Donald hype and age "bonus" is our very own Solly T. 

 

'm not sold on any of the edge guys being top flight NFL Pro Bowl types outside of Bosa really.

This is obvious that you think that. considering you're wanting to go with our 4th DT in 5 years. And this just may be a difference in evaluation, but I absolutely view Burns,  Polite and Allen as having incredible upside. Comparable to Williams (who I have as #1 overall player). 

 

Sure I really like some guys better than Bosa but he seems the least likely to bust due to his lineage. I just think his ceiling is substantial lower than most but I won't deny he will probably hit the ground running as a pro. But a guy like Allen I'm definitely not sold on a difference maker on the edge, at the next level. I definitely wouldn't compare him to Mack. And as much as I like Burns, do you draft him #2 overall? Same with Polite. If we were picking 6 or 7, sure go for the need. But having a chance to draft the top overall talent in the ENTIRE draft I think you have to entertain all possiblites. 

The Mack comparison is his best case scenario, like you comparing Williams to Donald..and Sapp...the two best DT's ever. Allen I would be fine taking #3 overall. His growth over his college career has been absolutely incredible. He put on 20 pounds and got faster. His productions is insane and the fact that he can do this hand in the ground, standing up and dropping in coverage s peaks to an incredibly rare skill-set. I would not fault any scout for putting Allen ahead of Bosa. Bosa would still be the guy i'd want, but Allen is comparable. Burns and Polite at 2 is a hard no, I would prefer a trade back. But if we're sitting at 2, I'd go Bosa, Allen, THEN Williams. 

10 hours ago, 757-NINER said:

Now if Bosa falls to number 2, sure I think he's the guy they take without question. Like I said, he seems the least likely to fail given the family's ability to produce pass-rushers. But if Bosa goes #1 and we're sitting on the clock, and Williams is waiting to be picked, he should be the guy IMO. Now if they can somehow manage to trade down and acquire picks BY ALL MEANS, I'm on board. But I just think that's highley unlikely. Even if Haskins declares, he's just not good enough IMO to warrant a trade-up into the #2 or #3 overall. This just isn't the year to trade up for a QB. So me saying Williams should be the pick is strictly about us staying@2 and having to decide which talent warrants the pick. I'm saying for my money, it's Williams. 

I certainly don't hate the player in Williams. As I said, he's my #1 player. But again...drafting Williams is waving a white flag on Thomas and DJ Jones. You draft a guy two, they gotta be on the field as much as possible...you draft a guy 3...they gotta be on the field as much as possible..Not sure I want this staff overthinking this DT rotation anymore than they already have. More so, I just don't believe in drafting BPA in a vacuum. Especially when it's a position of strength for our team while we have other glaring weaknesses that could be solved by taking someone like Allen, who IMO is worth the second overall pick. (if not a bit of an over pick, but akin to Thomas...overdraft..but was never dropping out of the top ten). 

[TecmoSuperJoe]

You people watch more college football than I could ever dream of. How do you think Haskins will do at the pro level?

[757-NINER]

10 hours ago, John232 said:

The Mack comparison is his best case scenario, like you comparing Williams to Donald..and Sapp...the two best DT's ever. Allen I would be fine taking #3 overall. His growth over his college career has been absolutely incredible. He put on 20 pounds and got faster. His productions is insane and the fact that he can do this hand in the ground, standing up and dropping in coverage s peaks to an incredibly rare skill-set. I would not fault any scout for putting Allen ahead of Bosa. Bosa would still be the guy i'd want, but Allen is comparable. Burns and Polite at 2 is a hard no, I would prefer a trade back. But if we're sitting at 2, I'd go Bosa, Allen, THEN Williams. 

I certainly don't hate the player in Williams. As I said, he's my #1 player. But again...drafting Williams is waving a white flag on Thomas and DJ Jones. You draft a guy two, they gotta be on the field as much as possible...you draft a guy 3...they gotta be on the field as much as possible..Not sure I want this staff overthinking this DT rotation anymore than they already have. More so, I just don't believe in drafting BPA in a vacuum. Especially when it's a position of strength for our team while we have other glaring weaknesses that could be solved by taking someone like Allen, who IMO is worth the second overall pick. (if not a bit of an over pick, but akin to Thomas...overdraft..but was never dropping out of the top ten). 

I hear where you're coming from and you make some valid points. My only problem with your stance is thinking DT is a position of strength. It's DeFo and a bunch of okay talent. We have some great depth and decent talent but none of those guys we'll miss when they aren't resigned in a few years. Like I stated earlier DeFo, Jones, and Taylor seem like the only guys who have a future here. I like Blair as a rotational guy and would like him to stick around for the right price. But the rest of the bunch, I don't see a future here for them or their skillset. Forget the draft captial we spent, Im talking about the return on that investment. DeFo is the only guy who has really been worthy of his draft selection. Thomas and Armstead aren't bad players by any stretch. They're just bad system fits to the scheme we run currently. I guess it really boils down to how you view the edge guys. I'm not as high on Allen as you obviously are. All of them are a tier below where I have Williams.

And for the record, I never compared Williams to Sapp nor Donald. I said he's a comparable talent. Williams is a different type of DT than both Donald and Williams. Both those guys are 3-Techs, through and through. Williams is a different type of DT.

[Fureys49ers]

Williams reminds me of a younger Richard Seymour with power, quickness and disruption in the backfield.

[757-NINER]

2 minutes ago, Fureys49ers said:

Williams reminds me of a younger Richard Seymour with power, quickness and disruption in the backfield.

I would actually say a more athletic Seymour but that's a pretty nice comp...

[oldman9er]

We have seen the edge guys that can run fast around the QB in a wide arc assuming 7+ step drop. 

Rushers like Marsh can get a wide arc with effectiveness, but if the OT stays out in front of him, then he's neutralized. He doesn't have the force or skill to work his way back inside or through the block.. and then is left with nothing but to run beyond and around the QB. 

We need to target complete players that have the strength and skills to leverage themselves through and inside of OTs as well. That's what makes guys like Mack special. He's a hatputs going inside or outside of blocks.

[Fureys49ers]

11 minutes ago, oldman9er said:

We have seen the edge guys that can run fast around the QB in a wide arc assuming 7+ step drop. 

Rushers like Marsh can get a wide arc with effectiveness, but if the OT stays out in front of him, then he's neutralized. He doesn't have the force or skill to work his way back inside or through the block.. and then is left with nothing but to run beyond and around the QB. 

We need to target complete players that have the strength and skills to leverage themselves through and inside of OTs as well. That's what makes guys like Mack special. He's a hatputs going inside or outside of blocks.

Agreed 100%. I see that in Allen, the ability to win on multiple fronts, the IQ to be effective in all aspects of the game and the athleticism to make wow plays. 

On that note I see Williams as a complete DT with the ability to cause havoc against the run and pass. Buckner already has a double digit sack season being the main focus of every offensive line, imagine pairing him up with Williams on the inside? You double both and that leaves guys on the edge free, which we’ll probably need to add atleast one who can win that matchup more often than not, but this frees up any and all blitzers as well as frees up our LBs in the run game. It’s tempting for sure to think about those two causing havoc. And I think as others have said, although we have Thomas, Armstead, Jones, Blair, Day, Taylor already on the roster, none of these guys is stopping me from adding the type of play Willims showed this year at Bama. The rest of Bama’s defense and DL specifically is loaded with talent, and Williams play made them look like JAGs.

[Forge]

5 hours ago, PapaShogun said:

You people watch more college football than I could ever dream of. How do you think Haskins will do at the pro level?

I don't think he's a top level, franchise quarterback or anything. I think he could be good, but I'm sort of lukewarm on him.  One of those guys that I think is worthy of a first round pick, but don't love enough to take in the top 3 if we were in need, if that makes sense. 

[NcFinest9erFan]

1 hour ago, Fureys49ers said:

Agreed 100%. I see that in Allen, the ability to win on multiple fronts, the IQ to be effective in all aspects of the game and the athleticism to make wow plays. 

On that note I see Williams as a complete DT with the ability to cause havoc against the run and pass. Buckner already has a double digit sack season being the main focus of every offensive line, imagine pairing him up with Williams on the inside? You double both and that leaves guys on the edge free, which we’ll probably need to add atleast one who can win that matchup more often than not, but this frees up any and all blitzers as well as frees up our LBs in the run game. It’s tempting for sure to think about those two causing havoc. And I think as others have said, although we have Thomas, Armstead, Jones, Blair, Day, Taylor already on the roster, none of these guys is stopping me from adding the type of play Willims showed this year at Bama. The rest of Bama’s defense and DL specifically is loaded with talent, and Williams play made them look like JAGs.

 I watched a ten min or so video on someone breaking down Allen's game. They said the one thing Allen needs to work on is his ability to counter. Sometimes when the OT gets his hands on Allen, he misses out on making a play because he simply doesn't use a counter move.

[Fureys49ers]

40 minutes ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

 I watched a ten min or so video on someone breaking down Allen's game. They said the one thing Allen needs to work on is his ability to counter. Sometimes when the OT gets his hands on Allen, he misses out on making a play because he simply doesn't use a counter move.

I’d agree as sometimes when his first move doesn’t work he tries to use his athleticism and strength to get by the OL which works sometimes and other times leaves him battling the OL instead of countering and continuing to work towards the ball. That can be taught by coaches as well as hand technique which he can get better at. But the tools are there, just need sharpening or refining in my mind.

[y2lamanaki]

3 hours ago, Fureys49ers said:

Agreed 100%. I see that in Allen, the ability to win on multiple fronts, the IQ to be effective in all aspects of the game and the athleticism to make wow plays. 

On that note I see Williams as a complete DT with the ability to cause havoc against the run and pass. Buckner already has a double digit sack season being the main focus of every offensive line, imagine pairing him up with Williams on the inside? You double both and that leaves guys on the edge free, which we’ll probably need to add atleast one who can win that matchup more often than not, but this frees up any and all blitzers as well as frees up our LBs in the run game. It’s tempting for sure to think about those two causing havoc. And I think as others have said, although we have Thomas, Armstead, Jones, Blair, Day, Taylor already on the roster, none of these guys is stopping me from adding the type of play Willims showed this year at Bama. The rest of Bama’s defense and DL specifically is loaded with talent, and Williams play made them look like JAGs.

No team will ever doubleteam two defensive tackles and leave an edge rusher unblocked unless it is a designed quick pass to the opposite side of the field or they thought the edge player was dropping into coverage. All it would do is guarantee that either Buckner or Williams is one-on-one with an OL (maybe with RB help). The Tackles will still inevitably block the edge rushers, which means we need talent at THAT position to improve the pass rush. 

[NcFinest9erFan]

1 hour ago, Fureys49ers said:

I’d agree as sometimes when his first move doesn’t work he tries to use his athleticism and strength to get by the OL which works sometimes and other times leaves him battling the OL instead of countering and continuing to work towards the ball. That can be taught by coaches as well as hand technique which he can get better at. But the tools are there, just need sharpening or refining in my mind.

Agreed. I like what I see on film.

[Fureys49ers]

9 minutes ago, y2lamanaki said:

No team will ever doubleteam two defensive tackles and leave an edge rusher unblocked unless it is a designed quick pass to the opposite side of the field or they thought the edge player was dropping into coverage. All it would do is guarantee that either Buckner or Williams is one-on-one with an OL (maybe with RB help). The Tackles will still inevitably block the edge rushers, which means we need talent at THAT position to improve the pass rush. 

I get that, and understand why we need to add more talent or talent at all to the outside pass rush, but the C and OG can essentially double either Williams or Buckner leaving the remaining OG and RB, if he’s not himself out on a route, against the other. I’d put money on whichever DT was being blocked by the OG and RB to win that battle often. Even if both DTs don’t “win” their battles on that play we have two DEs in one on ones and any blitzer is now free. 

I for sure understand that the outside pass rush must be improved as well but Williams would not be a wasted pick in that department in my mind. Not to mention the chaos those two would cause against the run making life much easier for Werner and whoever else is playing LB

[oldman9er]

4 hours ago, Fureys49ers said:

but Williams would not be a wasted pick in that department in my mind. Not to mention the chaos those two would cause

Oh, it would not be "a wasted pick" for sure, and yes, it is fun to imagine the carnage. All the same, I would ideally like SF to make other arrangements in round 1. Supposed to be an excellent draft for EDGE, and we so need to take advantage early, if possible. They can also supplement well in Free Agency, so there's that too. 

If it's not to be Bosa in the top 5, I wonder if most here would rather trade back a very short way or just go BPA.. which then may go back to where your thinking is. I'm really not sure how I feel; I have yet to really "put in the work" to make a strong stance.