Forge Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 3 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Eh. Usually DPOY has a cast around them. I'm not seeing it with Garrett. None of those guys are gonna just feast if he goes. The next highest sack total was 4. Not saying they can't make a leap, but none of those other guys scare me. Ogbah is obviously talented, but he's gonna need some kind of serious help, i.e. an interior rusher to really step up. So like I said. If Garrett is doubled, who is going to CONSISTENTLY impact the game on that DL. So far, none of them are proven. Hence my skepticism. I mean, the year Mack won DPOY the Raiders sack percentage was 4.23% and they were dead last in sack rate from what I can tell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 Just now, Forge said: I mean, the year Mack won DPOY the Raiders sack percentage was 4.23% and they were dead last in sack rate from what I can tell. Couple of things. 1. Garrett is not on Mack's level... Yet. Nor has he shown the ability to consistently beat the double teams that he's going to see. I'm sure he'll get it eventually because he's very talented, but he's going to command a lot of attention early on. 2. Mack still had Irvin to help him. 3. We were playing with leads. 4. He had a LOT of strip sacks and a defensive touchdown. If he didn't have both of those on a winning team, he wouldn't have won. I don't see 1, 2, or 3. 4 is a lot of luck involved. So we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SmittyBacall Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 22 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Couple of things. 1. Garrett is not on Mack's level... Yet. Nor has he shown the ability to consistently beat the double teams that he's going to see. I'm sure he'll get it eventually because he's very talented, but he's going to command a lot of attention early on. 2. Mack still had Irvin to help him. 3. We were playing with leads. 4. He had a LOT of strip sacks and a defensive touchdown. If he didn't have both of those on a winning team, he wouldn't have won. I don't see 1, 2, or 3. 4 is a lot of luck involved. So we'll see. But we're not debating whether or not he can be the DPOY, we're debating whether he has help rushing the passer along the line. He does. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Forge Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 43 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Couple of things. 1. Garrett is not on Mack's level... Yet. Nor has he shown the ability to consistently beat the double teams that he's going to see. I'm sure he'll get it eventually because he's very talented, but he's going to command a lot of attention early on. I don't mind taking a wait and see approach on MG. I would agree with that. He battled injuries last year and only played in 11 games, so there's some question there. If you're talking from a pure potential standpoint, he's absolutely on Mack's level...just not there in terms of actual production and on the field play. Certainly has the tools and skillset to be there. 2. Mack still had Irvin to help him. So Irvin to help him produce the worst sack rate in the NFL in 2016 is somehow a benefit or something to hold over MG when the cleveland defense produced sacks at a higher rate last year? I'm confused. This is about the teams surrounding them. After Irvin, the next highest sack total was 2.5. Cleveland's defense generated 9 more sacks last year than the Raiders did in 2016 when Mack won DPOY and at a higher rate. 3. We were playing with leads. This helps with a bulk stat argument, as it presented Mack more possibilities for sacks, but at the same time lessens the argument that Mack had Irvin to help him. Overall, I'm not overly concerned about the bulk stats part of MG's game - 7 in 11 is pretty solid, particularly for a rookie. Given that the team should be better as well, and opposing teams will be forced to throw more, there should be an increase in opportunities on a per game basis as well. 4. He had a LOT of strip sacks and a defensive touchdown. If he didn't have both of those on a winning team, he wouldn't have won. Irrelevant. You're moving the goal posts. Your posts have been about the team around him as being the crutch, whereas I'm showing that the defensive around him is at worse on par with the Raiders defense in 2016 when Mack won the DPOY. Your whole argument has been predicated on whether or not he has sufficient help. He does. LIS, don't mind taking a wait and see approach - it's not like I'm backing the claim he's somehow a lock for DPOY, I just haven't overly agree with your reasoning, though I understand your concern. Don't disagree that it may take some fortunate strip sacks and the like to get him there as well...there will certainly be some luck required to push him over the top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soko Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 57 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: Eh. Usually DPOY has a cast around them. 2017 DPOY: Aaron Donald (11 sacks). Robert Quinn (got traded in offseason) came in second with 8.5, followed by Ebukam at 5.5 (14 combined sacks). 2016 DPOY: Khalil Mack (11 sacks). Bruce Irvin was second on the team with 7, follower Autry with 2.5 (9.5 combined sacks). 2015 DPOY: JJ Watt (17.5 sacks). Whitney Mercilus was second with 12, followed by John Simon with 5 (17 combined). 2014 DPOY: JJ Watt (20.5 sacks). Whitney Mercilus came in second (5), followed by Jared Crick with 3.5 (8.5 combined sacks). 2012 DPOY: JJ Watt (20.5 sacks). Antonio Smith came in second with 7, followed by Whitney Mercilus with 6 (13 combined sacks). 2011 DPOY: Terrell Suggs (14 sacks). Pernell McPhee was the second leading rusher with 6, followed by Paul Kruger’s 5.5 (11.5 combined sacks). 2008 DPOY: James Harrison (16 sacks). Coming in second was Lamarr Woodley with 11.5, followed by Aaron Smith with 5 (16.5 total sacks). 2006 DPOY: Jason Taylor (13.5 sacks). Second on the team was Vonnie Holliday with 7.5, and then Kevin Carter 5.5 (13 sacks total). Those were the last 8 DPOYs that were pass rushers (primarily). For the most part, the second and third rushers on those teams were not exceptional (sans one year of Mercilus and Woodley). The second and third rushers averaged just under 13 combined sacks between the 16 of them. If you’re opened to some of them “making a leap” and admitting that “Ogbah is obviously talented”, then I don’t see how 13 sacks between the second and third options, is that far fetched. *Not implying that sacks are all that matters in a DPOY discussion. Simply commenting on the idea of DPOYs usually having help rushing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 8 minutes ago, Yin-Yang said: 2017 DPOY: Aaron Donald (11 sacks). Robert Quinn (got traded in offseason) came in second with 8.5, followed by Ebukam at 5.5 (14 combined sacks). 2016 DPOY: Khalil Mack (11 sacks). Bruce Irvin was second on the team with 7, follower Autry with 2.5 (9.5 combined sacks). 2015 DPOY: JJ Watt (17.5 sacks). Whitney Mercilus was second with 12, followed by John Simon with 5 (17 combined). 2014 DPOY: JJ Watt (20.5 sacks). Whitney Mercilus came in second (5), followed by Jared Crick with 3.5 (8.5 combined sacks). 2012 DPOY: JJ Watt (20.5 sacks). Antonio Smith came in second with 7, followed by Whitney Mercilus with 6 (13 combined sacks). 2011 DPOY: Terrell Suggs (14 sacks). Pernell McPhee was the second leading rusher with 6, followed by Paul Kruger’s 5.5 (11.5 combined sacks). 2008 DPOY: James Harrison (16 sacks). Coming in second was Lamarr Woodley with 11.5, followed by Aaron Smith with 5 (16.5 total sacks). 2006 DPOY: Jason Taylor (13.5 sacks). Second on the team was Vonnie Holliday with 7.5, and then Kevin Carter 5.5 (13 sacks total). Those were the last 8 DPOYs that were pass rushers (primarily). For the most part, the second and third rushers on those teams were not exceptional (sans one year of Mercilus and Woodley). The second and third rushers averaged just under 13 combined sacks between the 16 of them. If you’re opened to some of them “making a leap” and admitting that “Ogbah is obviously talented”, then I don’t see how 13 sacks between the second and third options, is that far fetched. *Not implying that sacks are all that matters in a DPOY discussion. Simply commenting on the idea of DPOYs usually having help rushing. You guys have fair points. I'll concede this one. Can't argue with the numbers. Though I'm still skeptical of the Browns pass rush. But again, we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AkronsWitness Posted August 28, 2018 Share Posted August 28, 2018 7 hours ago, Raves said: DPOY? No way... They'd never give a player DPOY and MVP in the same season... We call that the LeBron syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EaglesPeteC Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 @aceinthehouse, this guy is stealing your bit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Norm Posted August 29, 2018 Share Posted August 29, 2018 Maybe after he rushes for 2000 yards for the Redskins Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BleedTheClock Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 hours ago, EaglesPeteC said: @aceinthehouse, this guy is stealing your bit I think VanS has both more and hotter takes than Ace. You just gotta spend more time in the draft forum. I actually am with him on some of his predictions, but the problem is that every one of his predictions is hot. Literally nothing lines up with the status quo ever. That's what makes me giggle. Myles Garrett may very well be in the DPOY race, but to call it "pretty obvious" is borderline insane. It's not even pretty obvious that Aaron Donald will win it and he's the reigning champion and is in his physical prime...and is now playing with Ndamukong Suh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Small Town Values Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Agreed... And, If he doesn't win it, he's a bust. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nugpimpen Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 1 minute ago, Marc MacGyver said: Agreed... And, If he doesn't win it, he's a bust. What's this now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Small Town Values Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 2 minutes ago, nugpimpen said: What's this now? High expectations. He'll thank me at his HOF induction for pushing him so hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jakuvious Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 Well, Chris Simms agrees, so now it's definitely guaranteed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Slateman Posted August 30, 2018 Share Posted August 30, 2018 On 8/24/2018 at 12:31 PM, VanS said: He's been great all preseason but what he did last night against the Eagles was just unfair. The guy looks absolutely phenomenal this year. I've been watching football for nearly 20 years now and I haven't seen an edge rusher like him before. He's even more impressive to me than J.J. Watt in his prime. The strength, explosion, and bend he has is insane. I'll be shocked if he doesn't absolutely dominate the league this year. He's gonna be the best defensive player in the NFL for the next 5-10 years. I believe he's that special. In 2018, I could see him getting 18-20 sacks. He's Bruce Smith all over again. Did I just dream the last 7 years of watching Von Miller make everyone look silly? Or Justin Houston from 2012-2014? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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