Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

If Rheagar doesn’t think he needs to make a prophecy baby with Lyanna he never runs off with her. If he doesn’t run off with her 

Wouldn't he have just run off with another girl he liked, or was there something particularly special about Lyanna?

[lancerman]

1 minute ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Wouldn't he have just run off with another girl he liked, or was there something particularly special about Lyanna?

Rheagar had two kids. We know he was obsessed with prophecy. He had Jon because he believed that his offspring with Lyanna would be TPTWP

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, lancerman said:

Rheagar had two kids. We know he was obsessed with prophecy. He had Jon because he believed that his offspring with Lyanna would be TPTWP

But is that because Lyanna has to do with the prophecy herself, or could it have been with any other random girl?

[KingOfTheNorth]

5 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Does it matter if all the living ones clearly had their fate forshadowed?

Yes, you are the one who said the Wolves foreshadowed the Stark's fate. Robb and Rickon both show this to be false.

[ramssuperbowl99]

24 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

This is a good point, and something I didn't think about. However, could Jon have pulled this off without knowing about his lineage? Yes. Therefore, I still don't really see the need to reveal to viewers in S7 that Jon was a Targaryen. Imagine if that plot point was still unknown in S8, but Jon rides the dragon sparking speculation that he's a Targ. Then Jon sneaks by Drogon again, sparking more speculation. It would've had the same result.

Regardless though, I do agree that in that regard, him being a Targ had significance there.

WRT Arya, I'm pretty sure she could've just killed Grey Worm, put his face on and Drogon wouldn't have known. But they abandoned the faceless men stuff in S7E01.

I don't see what the point would be of the audience knowing the lineage without Jon knowing it. That'd be depriving us of a lot of really interesting interactions. And even then, without Jon as another option, would Tyrion and Varys have betrayed Dany? Would Jon have sensed that there was no other option? Maybe, maybe not.

Could Drogon have known that wasn't really Grey Worm if Arya killed him and used his face? Who knows. For the sake of the story, I'll say no. Having Jon as the only person who can kill Dany justifies and validates so much of the background that made this story excellent.

[PARROTHEAD]

13 minutes ago, lancerman said:

If Rheagar doesn’t think he needs to make a prophecy baby with Lyanna he never runs off with her. If he doesn’t run off with her 

Youve been Daisy Chaining to fit your personal resolve and wishes.

I can easily go the other way with it.

If Rhaegar doesnt run off with Lyanna.. The nation isnt ripped apart by war. Everyone is happy. Rhaegar replaces his dad (he had been planning too anyway) Alls peaceful and they gear up and fight the NK with the walls protection.

With Jon born. NK gets a dragon. NK brings down wall. NK adds 100k wildlings to his force when otherwise the Wildlings crush the 100 at Castle Black and get away from being added to the NK army. 99.9% of the Wildlings were wiped out by the time Tormund and Jons last scene. Dany never rises to being a mad queen because Rhaegar and fAegon would be alive.

And on and on. It fits both ways. Thats why Show Wise. I just take things more for face value. Because the puzzle is missing so many pieces like fAegon to truly piece it together otherwise.

[THE DUKE]

6 minutes ago, KingOfTheNorth said:

Yes, you are the one who said the Wolves foreshadowed the Stark's fate. Robb and Rickon both show this to be false.

I've seen this same argument on Facebook (which in turn I think pulled it from Reddit).  The argument there was that:

A shaggydog story is something that builds up and ultimately doesn't lead anywhere (which is kind of what happens with Rickon, he just ends up as emotional bait in the show, books TDB)

Grey Wind talks about Robb's quick ascension from a son of a lord to King of the North winning battles and then just as quickly is gone.  Maybe they said a grey wind is something that arrives quickly and leaves just as quickly. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I don't see what the point would be of the audience knowing the lineage without Jon knowing it. That'd be depriving us of a lot of really interesting interactions. And even then, without Jon as another option, would Tyrion and Varys have betrayed Dany? Would Jon have sensed that there was no other option? Maybe, maybe not.

Ultimately, what did Varys' betrayal do for the story line besides end his character? We saw him writing letters, but those obviously never culminated in anything happening either. Tyrion betrayed Dany and what was the result of that? He got to pick the new king!

I mean, I'm just not really seeing the overall point of telling the viewers that Jon was a Targ and then telling viewers that the implication of that is Jon is the true heir to the throne. Why not instead tell viewers that he's the Prince Who Was Promised? There's literally no mention of that whole thing after Mel dies. Jon still could've killed Dany because he was the closest person in her council not named Tyrion or Grey Worm at this point. He didn't have to know he was a Targ to get past Drogon, it could've been a thing that fans could theorize about later.

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Could Drogon have known that wasn't really Grey Worm if Arya killed him and used his face? Who knows. For the sake of the story, I'll say no.

It could be debated either way, really. The Faceless men obviously use magic with the faces, so it's not really like a Dragon would not be fooled by that.

1 minute ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Having Jon as the only person who can kill Dany justifies and validates so much of the background that made this story excellent.

I do agree there, I just don't think that revealing his lineage and connecting it with the throne really culminated in anything. If they wanted to go down the "Jon's the only person who can kill Dany because he's a Targaryen" that would've been much more interesting.

[KingOfTheNorth]

 

8 minutes ago, THE DUKE said:

I've seen this same argument on Facebook (which in turn I think pulled it from Reddit).  The argument there was that:

A shaggydog story is something that builds up and ultimately doesn't lead anywhere (which is kind of what happens with Rickon, he just ends up as emotional bait in the show, books TDB)

Grey Wind talks about Robb's quick ascension from a son of a lord to King of the North winning battles and then just as quickly is gone.  Maybe they said a grey wind is something that arrives quickly and leaves just as quickly. 

I can go along with Grey Wind. I don't agree with Shaggy Dog though. At least IMO, I don't see a writer foreshadowing that a characters story is pointless, in the first book. I am not saying you are wrong, just that I don't see how a writer would want to do that so early in a story. .

 I have never heard the Direwolves foreshadowing the fates of the Starks theory, and was interested in how it would apply to Rickon and Robb. Thank you for information instead of just saying "It doesn't matter" like the original poster.

Edited May 24, 2019 by KingOfTheNorth

[JonStark]

2 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

Youve been Daisy Chaining to fit your personal resolve and wishes.

I can easily go the other way with it.

If Rhaegar doesnt run off with Lyanna.. The nation isnt ripped apart by war. Everyone is happy. Rhaegar replaces his dad (he had been planning too anyway) Alls peaceful and they gear up and fight the NK with the walls protection.

With Jon born. NK gets a dragon. NK brings down wall. NK adds 100k wildlings to his force when otherwise the Wildlings crush the 100 at Castle Black and get away from being added to the NK army. 99.9% of the Wildlings were wiped out by the time Tormund and Jons last scene. Dany never rises to being a mad queen because Rhaegar and fAegon would be alive.

And on and on. It fits both ways. Thats why Show Wise. I just take things more for face value. Because the puzzle is missing so many pieces like fAegon to truly piece it together otherwise.

There still would be a Night King even without Jon. Saying that the he doesn't become a strong force without Jon in the world is awfully presumptuous. 

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

11 minutes ago, THE DUKE said:

I've seen this same argument on Facebook (which in turn I think pulled it from Reddit).  The argument there was that:

A shaggydog story is something that builds up and ultimately doesn't lead anywhere (which is kind of what happens with Rickon, he just ends up as emotional bait in the show, books TDB)

Grey Wind talks about Robb's quick ascension from a son of a lord to King of the North winning battles and then just as quickly is gone.  Maybe they said a grey wind is something that arrives quickly and leaves just as quickly. 

It's weird to me that the other dog names are very easy to connect the fates of the Starks, but you have to go to some rather extreme lengths to do Shaggy Dog and Grey Wind for Rickon and Robb.

[ramssuperbowl99]

3 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Ultimately, what did Varys' betrayal do for the story line besides end his character? We saw him writing letters, but those obviously never culminated in anything happening either. Tyrion betrayed Dany and what was the result of that? He got to pick the new king!

I mean, I'm just not really seeing the overall point of telling the viewers that Jon was a Targ and then telling viewers that the implication of that is Jon is the true heir to the throne. Why not instead tell viewers that he's the Prince Who Was Promised? There's literally no mention of that whole thing after Mel dies. Jon still could've killed Dany because he was the closest person in her council not named Tyrion or Grey Worm at this point. He didn't have to know he was a Targ to get past Drogon, it could've been a thing that fans could theorize about later.

It could be debated either way, really. The Faceless men obviously use magic with the faces, so it's not really like a Dragon would not be fooled by that.

I do agree there, I just don't think that revealing his lineage and connecting it with the throne really culminated in anything. If they wanted to go down the "Jon's the only person who can kill Dany because he's a Targaryen" that would've been much more interesting.

The ending of the show is very clear that Westeros is moving on from the idea of blood rights to power. So Jon being the rightful heir, in this new Westeros that moves on from traditional monarchy, doesn't matter the second Dany dies and the Iron Throne is melted. It mattered a great deal up until that point, because it got him alone in a room with her.

I said this earlier, but the only change I would make is that Arya gives Jon the dagger before he goes into the throne room. Jon stabs Dany with it, and as Drogon comes up he throws his hands up and the dagger off by the Iron Throne. Drogon melts the throne and we also see the dagger on fire. That confirms Jon as Azor Ahai, Dany as both the Long Night and Nissa Nissa, and the dagger as Lightbringer.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

The ending of the show is very clear that Westeros is moving on from the idea of blood rights to power. So Jon being the rightful heir, in this new Westeros that moves on from traditional monarchy, doesn't matter the second Dany dies and the Iron Throne is melted. It mattered a great deal up until that point, because it got him alone in a room with her.

Him being a Targaryen mattered, sure, but not him being the heir to the throne. Hell, even if he wasn't a Targ and he was just Jon Snow, loyal adviser to Dany, do you still think Drogon would've not let him through?

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

I said this earlier, but the only change I would make is that Arya gives Jon the dagger before he goes into the throne room. Jon stabs Dany with it, and as Drogon comes up he throws his hands up and the dagger off by the Iron Throne. Drogon melts the throne and we also see the dagger on fire. That confirms Jon as Azor Ahai, Dany as both the Long Night and Nissa Nissa, and the dagger as Lightbringer.

I agree this would've been a better end to Dany.

[PARROTHEAD]

Just now, JonStark said:

There still would be a Night King even without Jon. Saying that the he doesn't become a strong force without Jon in the world is awfully presumptuous. 

Where did I say that?  I said he could be fought at the wall with the walls protection. Or he doesnt build up force enough to even try because all the wildlings would be south of the wall.

[ramssuperbowl99]

23 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

25 minutes ago, lancerman said:

Rheagar had two kids. We know he was obsessed with prophecy. He had Jon because he believed that his offspring with Lyanna would be TPTWP

But is that because Lyanna has to do with the prophecy herself, or could it have been with any other random girl?

Rhaegar believed his first son Aegon (with Elia, not Jon Snow) would be TPWWP because he was born under a red comet when Rhaegar wasn't. But he also believed there needed to be 3 Targaryan children. "The dragon has 3 heads" was a quote from him, which isn't related to the prophecy directly, but is related to the Targ sigil. The problem is that Elia couldn't have children after the 2 she had with Rhaegar. 

He was also aware that "[TPWWP] is the song of ice and fire", so a Stark-Targ child would fit that description well.