Game of Thrones - Our Watch has Ended

[MakeDenverGreatAgain]

Honestly read the first 100 pages of the book and the ending made A LOT more sense (and really shows how the bundled adapting important parts of the books).

Arya named her Direwold Nymeria after a warrior princess/woman who led her people across the Narrow Sea and into Westeros, hence her leading a group of people West of Westeros makes perfect sense, it's just barely ever referenced in the show, if at all.

There's also like 3 pages strictly describing what Bran wants to do when he gets to Kingslanding before he's pushed out the window by Jamie. It's engrained from early on in the books that he'll eventually end up in KL, someway, somehow.  

[lancerman]

49 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

Nope. Entire point of Jon being a Targaryen and the rightful heir to the throne was to be a plot device to assist in Dany becoming mad. Are your expectations subverted yet?

This is where people lose me because it’s an example of people not getting what they expected and saying a whole plot point was pointless. 

Jon’s lineage:

1. Explains the entire impetus for Robert’s Rebellion which was the catalyst for the entire current set up of the show. 

2. The son of Rheagar was destined to be a prophecy child who was The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai. By leading the battle against the White Walkers and slaying Dany, Jon fulfilled those prophecies. 

3. It explains why Ned was so hateful of Robert allowing the Lannister soldiers to kill Rheagar’s children and why the entire first book/season Ned was battling Robert for trying to assassinated Targaryen children

4. Yes it disrupted Dany’s claim to the throne and was one of the many motivators that isolated her and caused several of her supporters to question whether Jon or her should rule, leading to at least one treason. 

5. On a personal note Jon spent his entire life thinking he was an unwanted bastard and that his mother was some tavern girl or some whore in a brothel. He now know that his father was the crown prince, his mother was the beloved Lyanna Stark, his parents were married, and he was wanted so much that his father risked a war for his sake and later on his uncle sacrificed his honor to keep him safe. 

The fact that he didn’t end up on the throne because the Targaryen line of secession no longer exists does not make it pointless. Claims only matter if you can get the support for them. Jon became a king when everyone believed he was a bastard. When he discovered he had the best claim lawfully, he did something that pretty much guaranteed he would never sit on the throne. Not that Jon wanted it anyways. We already saw what a king who takes the throne when he doesn’t want it is like 

[lancerman]

42 minutes ago, MakeDenverGreatAgain said:

Honestly read the first 100 pages of the book and the ending made A LOT more sense (and really shows how the bundled adapting important parts of the books).

Arya named her Direwold Nymeria after a warrior princess/woman who led her people across the Narrow Sea and into Westeros, hence her leading a group of people West of Westeros makes perfect sense, it's just barely ever referenced in the show, if at all.

There's also like 3 pages strictly describing what Bran wants to do when he gets to Kingslanding before he's pushed out the window by Jamie. It's engrained from early on in the books that he'll eventually end up in KL, someway, somehow.  

The entire first book is a completely different experience with knowledge we learn later..

Jon’s parentage completely changes Ned’s chapters. The Direwolves give away the fates of all the Stark’s 

Lady: Sansa becomes the Queen of the North and Lady of Winterfell

Summer: Bran goes South to become King

Nymeria: Arya travels the world like her wolfs namesake

Ghost: Jon as the hero travels North of the wall into the mysterious land of always winter and fades from Westeros

[Broncofan]

22 minutes ago, lancerman said:

This is where people lose me because it’s an example of people not getting what they expected and saying a whole plot point was pointless. 

Jon’s lineage:

1. Explains the entire impetus for Robert’s Rebellion which was the catalyst for the entire current set up of the show. 

2. The son of Rheagar was destined to be a prophecy child who was The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai. By leading the battle against the White Walkers and slaying Dany, Jon fulfilled those prophecies. 

3. It explains why Ned was so hateful of Robert allowing the Lannister soldiers to kill Rheagar’s children and why the entire first book/season Ned was battling Robert for trying to assassinated Targaryen children

4. Yes it disrupted Dany’s claim to the throne and was one of the many motivators that isolated her and caused several of her supporters to question whether Jon or her should rule, leading to at least one treason. 

5. On a personal note Jon spent his entire life thinking he was an unwanted bastard and that his mother was some tavern girl or some whore in a brothel. He now know that his father was the crown prince, his mother was the beloved Lyanna Stark, his parents were married, and he was wanted so much that his father risked a war for his sake and later on his uncle sacrificed his honor to keep him safe. 

The fact that he didn’t end up on the throne because the Targaryen line of secession no longer exists does not make it pointless. Claims only matter if you can get the support for them. Jon became a king when everyone believed he was a bastard. When he discovered he had the best claim lawfully, he did something that pretty much guaranteed he would never sit on the throne. Not that Jon wanted it anyways. We already saw what a king who takes the throne when he doesn’t want it is like 

While I have a lot of problems with the character progression in S8's writing to get where they end up (and less of an issue for the end result) for many of the key players, frankly for Jon & Sansa I think they were kept completely in-character progression-wise - even to the point where Jon's decisions were royally stupid, but fit with his values on honor & family (and same for Sansa transforming from helpless, fearful girl to a leader willing to make the hard choices for the good of the North, even when it cost allies/family like Jon dearly).    

I get the criticism pretty much elsewhere, but for Jon & Sansa, their progression was very much in-line (now if ppl want to argue Jon learned zip on needing to make better decisions as a leader...no argument there, but even then he fulfills Ygritte's famous line to the end).   And in Jon's case, it did fulfill the Azor Azhai prophecy, just not in direct literal order.  There's no doubt he saved the kingdom, we just weren't expecting it was Dany he had to kill to do it (and of course the North doesn't defeat the NK army without his work in uniting the various parties).

Edited May 24, 2019 by Broncofan

[KingOfTheNorth]

9 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The entire first book is a completely different experience with knowledge we learn later..

Jon’s parentage completely changes Ned’s chapters. The Direwolves give away the fates of all the Stark’s 

Lady: Sansa becomes the Queen of the North and Lady of Winterfell

Summer: Bran goes South to become King

Nymeria: Arya travels the world like her wolfs namesake

Ghost: Jon as the hero travels North of the wall into the mysterious land of always winter and fades from Westeros

What about Robb and RIckon?

[oldman9er]

12 hours ago, BleedTheClock said:

I haven't seen a single episode of this show. I heard the ending is terrible. Does that mean I shouldn't bother watching the series or would that be a grave mistake? I meant to catch up on this series eventually, but hearing that the ending was so bad kind of makes me not want to invest my time. Thoughts?

I think it depends on how critical you are on not being held by the hand on every eventuality. Also depends on how much you allow a fictional tv show to affect your raw emotions. 

I wouldn't call S8 the best, nor would I call it a bust/disaster. There were directions and decisions made that mildly disappointed. I find many tv series' last season to be disappointing, really. I still enjoyed the journey though, if not the ending.

Overall, I'd call the whole thing entertaining, and beautiful in production. You could always watch through and skip the last season. Make your own conclusions on how it should end... imagine that alone in your mind, and walk away from it.  

[PARROTHEAD]

19 minutes ago, lancerman said:

This is where people lose me because it’s an example of people not getting what they expected and saying a whole plot point was pointless. 

Jon’s lineage:

1. Explains the entire impetus for Robert’s Rebellion which was the catalyst for the entire current set up of the show. 

2. The son of Rheagar was destined to be a prophecy child who was The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai. By leading the battle against the White Walkers and slaying Dany, Jon fulfilled those prophecies. 

3. It explains why Ned was so hateful of Robert allowing the Lannister soldiers to kill Rheagar’s children and why the entire first book/season Ned was battling Robert for trying to assassinated Targaryen children

4. Yes it disrupted Dany’s claim to the throne and was one of the many motivators that isolated her and caused several of her supporters to question whether Jon or her should rule, leading to at least one treason. 

5. On a personal note Jon spent his entire life thinking he was an unwanted bastard and that his mother was some tavern girl or some whore in a brothel. He now know that his father was the crown prince, his mother was the beloved Lyanna Stark, his parents were married, and he was wanted so much that his father risked a war for his sake and later on his uncle sacrificed his honor to keep him safe. 

The fact that he didn’t end up on the throne because the Targaryen line of secession no longer exists does not make it pointless. Claims only matter if you can get the support for them. Jon became a king when everyone believed he was a bastard. When he discovered he had the best claim lawfully, he did something that pretty much guaranteed he would never sit on the throne. Not that Jon wanted it anyways. We already saw what a king who takes the throne when he doesn’t want it is like 

The rebellion would have happened regardless. Rhaegar already had a son and a daughter.

Show wise. The whole point of Jon was pointless. Unless youre saying the prophecies were from the "Ice" side of "Fire and Ice" while R'hllor was the fire. Cause the way the show makes it seem. Jon was born to get the NK past the wall.

[lancerman]

21 minutes ago, KingOfTheNorth said:

What about Robb and RIckon?

They died 

[KingOfTheNorth]

Just now, lancerman said:

They died 

Oh really?

And how did the Direwolves foreshadow that fate? That's what your were saying in your post, correct?

[PARROTHEAD]

5 minutes ago, KingOfTheNorth said:

Oh really?

And how did the Direwolves foreshadow that fate? That's what your were saying in your post, correct?

Shaggy Dog in lit is a long, built up story that ends as nothing to the overall story.

It fit Rickon.

Grey Wind had no meaning. Much like the rest of the wolves.

Edit to say: I think GRRM stuck Shaggy Dog in there like that intentionally for humor, much like he did Wun Wun meaning Phil Simms. (No.11 = Wun Wun)

Edited May 24, 2019 by PARROTHEAD

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

This is where people lose me because it’s an example of people not getting what they expected and saying a whole plot point was pointless. 

Jon’s lineage:

1. Explains the entire impetus for Robert’s Rebellion which was the catalyst for the entire current set up of the show. 

We already knew Robert's Rebellion was based on Rhaegar and Lyanna. What we didn't know is that they were in love, and that Rhaegar didn't steal her. Ultimately, that entire reveal ended up being pointless. Jon being the son of those two people ended up being pointless, other than as a plot device to help Dany go mad.

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

2. The son of Rheagar was destined to be a prophecy child who was The Prince Who Was Promised/Azor Ahai. By leading the battle against the White Walkers and slaying Dany, Jon fulfilled those prophecies. 

Is that ever in the show (the first part)?

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

3. It explains why Ned was so hateful of Robert allowing the Lannister soldiers to kill Rheagar’s children and why the entire first book/season Ned was battling Robert for trying to assassinated Targaryen children

Which, again, is pointless in the grand scheme of things.

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

4. Yes it disrupted Dany’s claim to the throne and was one of the many motivators that isolated her and caused several of her supporters to question whether Jon or her should rule, leading to at least one treason. 

Ultimately it did nothing to disrupt Dany's claim, though. In theory it would have, but the way the show played out, it didn't impact anything. Even after she was dead not a single person was like "Hey uh so Jon is really Aegon Targaryen, shouldn't we consider him for the throne?".

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

5. On a personal note Jon spent his entire life thinking he was an unwanted bastard and that his mother was some tavern girl or some whore in a brothel. He now know that his father was the crown prince, his mother was the beloved Lyanna Stark, his parents were married, and he was wanted so much that his father risked a war for his sake and later on his uncle sacrificed his honor to keep him safe. 

I mean yeah that's a great thing for him to learn. Too bad the show didn't spend any time actually making that realization, which is HUGE, meaningful in any way. Again, it was pointless.

48 minutes ago, lancerman said:

The fact that he didn’t end up on the throne because the Targaryen line of secession no longer exists does not make it pointless. Claims only matter if you can get the support for them. Jon became a king when everyone believed he was a bastard. When he discovered he had the best claim lawfully, he did something that pretty much guaranteed he would never sit on the throne. Not that Jon wanted it anyways. We already saw what a king who takes the throne when he doesn’t want it is like 

But again, revealing Jon's lineage did nothing in S7/S8 except drive a wedge between Dany and Jon. That's it.

[ramssuperbowl99]

25 minutes ago, AFlaccoSeagulls said:

We already knew Robert's Rebellion was based on Rhaegar and Lyanna. What we didn't know is that they were in love, and that Rhaegar didn't steal her. Ultimately, that entire reveal ended up being pointless. Jon being the son of those two people ended up being pointless, other than as a plot device to help Dany go mad.

Is that ever in the show (the first part)?

Which, again, is pointless in the grand scheme of things.

Ultimately it did nothing to disrupt Dany's claim, though. In theory it would have, but the way the show played out, it didn't impact anything. Even after she was dead not a single person was like "Hey uh so Jon is really Aegon Targaryen, shouldn't we consider him for the throne?".

I mean yeah that's a great thing for him to learn. Too bad the show didn't spend any time actually making that realization, which is HUGE, meaningful in any way. Again, it was pointless.

But again, revealing Jon's lineage did nothing in S7/S8 except drive a wedge between Dany and Jon. That's it.

Watching the finale again, Jon's parentage was important to the story. 

Dany was in the throne room alone, but was guarded by Drogon outside. Drogon only let Jon through because he was a Targaryan, so only Jon was going to be able to kill her. That's why he had to be resurrected by the Lord of Light. No Jon, and Dany goes on killing. I don't think even Arya could get by a dragon.

[AFlaccoSeagulls]

2 minutes ago, ramssuperbowl99 said:

Watching the finale again, Jon's parentage was important to the story. 

Dany was in the throne room alone, but was guarded by Drogon outside. Drogon only let Jon through because he was a Targaryan, so only Jon was going to be able to kill her. That's why he had to be resurrected by the Lord of Light. No Jon, and Dany goes on killing. I don't think even Arya could get by a dragon.

This is a good point, and something I didn't think about. However, could Jon have pulled this off without knowing about his lineage? Yes. Therefore, I still don't really see the need to reveal to viewers in S7 that Jon was a Targaryen. Imagine if that plot point was still unknown in S8, but Jon rides the dragon sparking speculation that he's a Targ. Then Jon sneaks by Drogon again, sparking more speculation. It would've had the same result.

Regardless though, I do agree that in that regard, him being a Targ had significance there.

WRT Arya, I'm pretty sure she could've just killed Grey Worm, put his face on and Drogon wouldn't have known. But they abandoned the faceless men stuff in S7E01.

[lancerman]

17 minutes ago, PARROTHEAD said:

The rebellion would have happened regardless. Rhaegar already had a son and a daughter.

Show wise. The whole point of Jon was pointless. Unless youre saying the prophecies were from the "Ice" side of "Fire and Ice" while R'hllor was the fire. Cause the way the show makes it seem. Jon was born to get the NK past the wall.

If Rheagar doesn’t think he needs to make a prophecy baby with Lyanna he never runs off with her. If he doesn’t run off with her 

[lancerman]

47 minutes ago, KingOfTheNorth said:

Oh really?

And how did the Direwolves foreshadow that fate? That's what your were saying in your post, correct?

Does it matter if all the living ones clearly had their fate forshadowed?