Minnesota sending Butler to Philadelphia

[beekay414]

Butler's style grinds on people. That in itself is toxic.

[champ11]

52 minutes ago, amac said:

 

What did he do in Chicago? (Honestly don't remember). He seems like the type of guy who maybe pouts if his team isn't up to his standards, which he should be knocked for but it's not the worst kind of locker room problem. People were saying similar things about Kawhi who seems to be working out for Toronto.

He pretty much went mutiny on Hoiberg because they weren't clicking and there were issues with him and Rose when Rose came back...most issues Jimmy has been kinda right in his thought process, but just seems like he can be a pretty tough guy to deal with. I don't think he's a "cancer" but I think how he handled this Minnesota situation was an extremely bad look even though he was fair for wanting out. Going to be interesting to see him in Philly - I assume he is going to be exactly who he needs to be to get that max contract. 

 

[champ11]

1 hour ago, Utley said:

Butler isn't toxic.

Fultz has value, although not nearly what he had as a pick

 Philly is the third best team in the east.

Wiggins will never be traded.

The east is the better conference.

What type of value does Fultz have? I think they should trade him for whatever they can get at this point. He's going to have no time on the ball with Butler in the fold. I think you pretty much just put an end to the Fultz disaster in Philly with this trade tbh 

Saying the east is the better conference is a wild take. I think 2 of the best 3 teams ~right now~ are from the east (mil and toronto) but I think Boston and Philly are in the same tier if not worse than that second tier of the west and the west is so so much deeper. 

I shouldn't say wild take. I think it's too early to say, but the depth of the west certainly makes it a lot tougher on those second tier teams in the west and they may not appear to be as good as that top tier in the east record wise, but in reality are just as good or better teams. 

[champ11]

@Utley lmao I didn't even realize you changed your name. You all doing this now ?? I'm missing the trend ?? @FinneasGage @beekay414

[RandyMossIsBoss]

1 hour ago, Saosin said:

To me this trade was all about what MN is missing, defense. I'll take Saric and Covington to round out the wolves starting 5 with their defensive talent vs how toxic butler was at the end. I hope that the wolves got the better end of the deal in this because on paper it looks like we got fleeced a bit! 

Would you have preferred the 4 1sts from the Rockets over this deal? I certainly think the Rockets deal made more sense long term, just more upside, but if trying to compete now getting two starter quality players makes sense. 

[Mox]

19 minutes ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Would you have preferred the 4 1sts from the Rockets over this deal? I certainly think the Rockets deal made more sense long term, just more upside, but if trying to compete now getting two starter quality players makes sense. 

Of the four picks only one really had value.

[RandyMossIsBoss]

3 minutes ago, Bullet Club said:

Of the four picks only one really had value.

I think the last 2 both would have had value as potential lottery picks. Especially seeing how bad they look right now. Hell, might even get your lottery pick this year lol. Sure they recover, but going forward, Harden is not an LBJ type talent that can single handedly keep a team out of the lottery. CP3 is going to be gone or in his twlight years by the time those last 2 1sts come.

[Utley]

1 hour ago, Fresh Prince said:

He had issues in Chicago where rondo stepped in and call him and dwade out, now issues in minny.

Rondo had issues in Chicago.

[sdrawkcab321]

Just now, Utley said:

Rondo had issues in Chicago.

Rondo has had issues with every team he’s been on except New Orleans. 

[Utley]

53 minutes ago, champ11 said:

What type of value does Fultz have? I think they should trade him for whatever they can get at this point. He's going to have no time on the ball with Butler in the fold. I think you pretty much just put an end to the Fultz disaster in Philly with this trade tbh 

Saying the east is the better conference is a wild take. I think 2 of the best 3 teams ~right now~ are from the east (mil and toronto) but I think Boston and Philly are in the same tier if not worse than that second tier of the west and the west is so so much deeper. 

I shouldn't say wild take. I think it's too early to say, but the depth of the west certainly makes it a lot tougher on those second tier teams in the west and they may not appear to be as good as that top tier in the east record wise, but in reality are just as good or better teams. 

Fultz could still fetch an NBA starter.

[champ11]

12 minutes ago, Utley said:

Fultz could still fetch an NBA starter.

I'd send Torrey Craig for sure 

[amac]

5 hours ago, Utley said:

I’d rank the top 8 as:

Golden State

Toronto

Boston

Philadelphia

Denver

Milwaukee

Portland

Houston

 

No real guarantee that Houston figures it out. They’ve got some major issues and appear to be scapegoating Melo.

Pels will be in there over Portland if we stay healthy iyam. I'd probably have Milwaukee a bit higher at present

[WeaponX]

I'm going to miss RoCo and Saric because of how long they've been around. But I'm really not going to miss their play. Both showed how limited they can be against Boston last year. RoCo has a reputation as a 3 and D guy and he is but he certainly doesn't seem like he's good enough to fit that role on a championship team. He's a maddeningly streaky shooter and although his defense is good, it's not really good enough come playoff time against the best teams. Saric is a liability defensively. Both against good teams and also in general. And he's also a bit streaky overall with his game. Saric certainly has a bit more room to grow but I think he's getting close to his ceiling. He's limited athletically. Covington seems maxed out. I think he's at his ceiling and this is what he's going to be for a while.

I think both guys fit whatever it is that Minnesota is trying to do. Especially with their locker room dynamic. 

What were the issues with Butler in Minnesota? His competitiveness is too much for most players. They don't like how hard he practices. And he doesn't like to lose. That certainly did not fit with how KAT and Wiggins approach their careers. Neither are necessarily the most competitive players. It's pretty clear why Butler didn't fit at all with Wiggins and KAT. Those two have some of the most potential in the NBA yet have been real disappointments in terms of reaching their ceiling. Butler has never been the guy known for having generational talent potential. He just outworks people. It makes perfect sense why that would be so frustrating for Butler and also for Wiggins and KAT. Good hates great. And I think everyone can also think of people who have a ton of talent but resent others who work harder than them to look better. Some people love that competitiveness and it brings out the best in them and for others it can be draining.

Embiid and Simmons don't strike me as people who are going to shy away from Butler. We all know Embiid has a competitive streak. You see it every time he plays. He's a goofball on social media off the court but he's actively trying to embarrass people on the court. I think that's something Butler and Embiid will have in common. If Butler was bothered by KAT's lack of a killer instinct or a lack of drive, he's going to love Joel. People say Simmons is just as competitive but who knows. It's not as clear as Embiid so far but that's fair because we've only really seen a full season of Simmons playing in the NBA. 

The one massive question mark is what this will do to Fultz. At one point or the other, Butler is going to tear into Fultz. That's inevitable. I get the impression players on the Sixers have been soft on Markelle. Whether because they're all young or because they better understand Markelle's personality is a question. Regardless, I don't think Butler is really going to care and I think it's a near certainty that he's not going to be as sensitive with Markelle.  It's going to go one of two ways. Either Markelle is going to respond to some forceful pushing from Butler to get things going or Butler is going to completely break him and Markelle will lose whatever little confidence he has left. At this point, my take on Fultz is that he's broken. It's going to take a miracle for him to turn this around and even be a passable player. Just watch him play. He is sulking up and down the court. It doesn't seem like he's enjoying playing basketball at all and it looks like he's checked out. I don't know if he's beating himself up over the start of his career. But it definitely seems that way. And I'm not so sure that a big personality like Butler bringing his competitiveness every day is going to help him. But then again, maybe a veteran player pushing Markelle is all the Sixers have left to hope for. 

I love the move for the Sixers. Butler is a clear upgrade over RoCo and Saric. The Sixers needed to find a wing capable of playing elite defense against opposing wings. That was missing in the series against Boston. They found that with Butler. It might take some time but I don't think the Sixers are going to be missing RoCo and Saric in the playoffs. I actually think having Butler is going to be a huge bonus for them in the playoffs. Combine Butler's ability on both ends of the floor with Embiid's noticeable improvement this season and another season of Simmons playing in the NBA could make a huge difference for the Sixers in the playoffs this year. Not saying they'll beat Boston. I think Brad Stevens owns Brett Brown so it'll take a lot for the Sixers to get past the Celtics but I think that close playoff series from last year will be even closer. A lot of those games were really closely contested and were decided by a couple late possessions.

I can't imagine any scenario in which this Sixers roster looks the same in April. I think there are a few more moves to make. They're definitely going to be adding shooters whether that's signing players who were bought out or trading for some shooters. Maybe even potentially another trade for a star player. They still have assets to pull something off. The Miami 2021 pick should be extremely valuable. And it only takes one team to think they can turn Fultz around. 

[MookieMonstah]

9 hours ago, WeaponX said:

The one massive question mark is what this will do to Fultz. At one point or the other, Butler is going to tear into Fultz. That's inevitable. I get the impression players on the Sixers have been soft on Markelle. Whether because they're all young or because they better understand Markelle's personality is a question. Regardless, I don't think Butler is really going to care and I think it's a near certainty that he's not going to be as sensitive with Markelle.  It's going to go one of two ways. Either Markelle is going to respond to some forceful pushing from Butler to get things going or Butler is going to completely break him and Markelle will lose whatever little confidence he has left. At this point, my take on Fultz is that he's broken. It's going to take a miracle for him to turn this around and even be a passable player. Just watch him play. He is sulking up and down the court. It doesn't seem like he's enjoying playing basketball at all and it looks like he's checked out. I don't know if he's beating himself up over the start of his career. But it definitely seems that way. And I'm not so sure that a big personality like Butler bringing his competitiveness every day is going to help him. But then again, maybe a veteran player pushing Markelle is all the Sixers have left to hope for.

Yep, I legitimately think the Sixers need to put Fultz on IR. Get him with a sports psychologist full time and just get the dude away from basketball. Keep him away from the team and the sport, let him work through the issues he's having and re-discover his love for the game. Trying to work through it isn't going to work for him IMO.

[swede700]

15 hours ago, RandyMossIsBoss said:

Would you have preferred the 4 1sts from the Rockets over this deal? I certainly think the Rockets deal made more sense long term, just more upside, but if trying to compete now getting two starter quality players makes sense. 

That was a ridiculous trade offer.  It made no sense, long-term or short, since most draft picks don't even pan out period, and low-level 1st rounders even less so.  That offer was equivalent to just giving Butler away for 2 Cheese pizzas and a case of Natural Light.