Jerry Rice vs Don Hutson?

[ZenoRazon]

7 minutes ago, Forge said:

Your response didn't have to be anything. It was a joke. Not even directed at your post, but rammy's. I'm not sure what about his post would facilitate that specific response lol

What in the world does this have to do with my post?

I respect others threads, if the topic is comparing two footballers,  that's what I do.

I was told by one of you mods to stay on topic in another thread. Now it's ok to ignore the topic with he's dead?

???

[Forge]

4 minutes ago, ZenoRazon said:

I respect others threads, if the topic is comparing two footballers,  that's what I do.

I was told by one of you mods to stay on topic in another thread. Now it's ok to ignore the topic with he's dead?

???

Yes, it's okay to make jokes...

And with that, we will stop derailing this thread for anyone who wants to answer the question at hand

[Buddyboy]

1 minute ago, ZenoRazon said:

 

In 1942 they were throwing a rugby ball into man to man coverage. Cecil Isible the QB from Purdue U was in his last season in Green Bay. The war was on. Lambeaus Packers were the only pass first team. Luckman and Baugh were the star QBs in the league. Isible to Hudson gave the Packers a big advantage.

[ZenoRazon]

2 minutes ago, Buddyboy said:

In 1942 they were throwing a rugby ball into man to man coverage. Cecil Isible the QB from Purdue U was in his last season in Green Bay. The war was on. Lambeaus Packers were the only pass first team. Luckman and Baugh were the star QBs in the league. Isible to Hudson gave the Packers a big advantage.

Glad you brought that up.

In 42 Hutson caught that NFL record 74 pases,  second best....27, third best 24, then 23.This one is amazing.....Hutson had 17 TD's, the next four...9...combined.

Slingin' Sammy Baugh averaged 48.2 a punt, with a 74 yarder as his long.  He could punt today.

[JAF-N72EX]

1 hour ago, ZenoRazon said:

So why was Don Hutson so far superior to everyone else in his era?

It wasn't only speed, I'll tell you that. Why was Rice not only the best WR of all-time but the greatest NFL player of all-time? Was that because of speed too?

What about Lawrence Taylor? Butkus? What about Clowney? Is he is better than Watt?

But I know. It don't and/or wouldn't matter if I answered or not because you would only continue to ignore points like these just like you do have every other time you have been proven wrong with facts. I have come to the conclusion that you either have some sort of psych complex going on that doesn't allow you to admit when you are wrong, or you are only here to incite others. One of the two....or both.

 

[ZenoRazon]

9 minutes ago, JustAnotherFan said:

It wasn't only speed, I'll tell you that. Why was Rice not only the best WR of all-time but the greatest NFL player of all-time? Was that because of speed too?

What about Lawrence Taylor? Butkus? What about Clowney? Is he is better than Watt?

But I know. It don't and/or wouldn't matter if I answered or not because you would only continue to ignore points like these just like you do have every other time you have been proven wrong with facts. I have come to the conclusion that you either have some sort of psych complex going on that doesn't allow you to admit when you are wrong, or you are only here to incite others. One of the two....or both.

 

First off, I;m very serious about the things I talk about.  Everything I'm into has been a long time interest, things ya pick up with time. 

Don Hutson was the fastest player in the NFL in his era.  NO speed wasn't his everything but it was what made that DRAMATIC difference.

Butkus was a middle backer, speed pretty meaningless.

Taylor, Clowney more about burst, get off than actual speed.

What "facts" did I get wrong, yep, curious?

You appear to think I think all that ever matters is "just" speed, well that's not how it works.  What does work is when we find a gang of athletes with pretty much the same ability other than one has far superior speed. That is pretty much my song and dance.

Jerry Rice was like a lot of guys, he was far faster in pads in game situations than he was on a track.  And we have seen guys just the opposite like Curtis Dickey.

 

[Mr Bad Example]

4 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

So why was Don Hutson so far superior to everyone else in his era?

Hutson and Herber/Isbell under Lambeau were the first passing game to operate with any level of sophistication, as far as running routes; other teams were basically "yeah, go out, run around, and when you get open, I'll throw it"; reportedly GB was the first team to have a plan of "run 15 yds, cut inside, and I'll throw it when you cut" - sounds alarmingly basic right now, but it was a huge revelation back then. 

Also, Hutson's best seasons (41-44) came when most other able bodied men were away fighting WW2, and also his entire career was played pre-integration; so not only was the sport missing a large chunk of the best athletes due to race, but for another half of his career it was missing at lot of great athletes from even the diminished pool of talent. 

 

That said, he was dominant prior to 1941, and no one really runs down the numbers oft the other HoF players who played from 41-45 , so these criticisms probably hold SOME water, but not much.  

[bzane]

6 hours ago, ZenoRazon said:

Yep, that would be me. Do I know you, from where?

Oh, I'm just a secret fan of yours from before, Brother Brutal!

Always admired your encyclopedic knowledge of track stats, especially 100-yard-dash times; your great stores of NFL history; your intractable forensic style and Never-Say-Die attitude in discussions here!

Me, I've been straightened out enough times on these boards- by @jrry32 about Jared Goff; by @Wyld Stallyns about Andrew Luck; by the smart fans of the Eagles and the Packers more times than I care to remember- to know when to admit defeat; I can only read and admire in awed wonder at your aggressiveness in argument.

But- why the screen-name change and new I.D., Brother Brutal? Knew right away you were the same guy, but why the mysterious new iteration?

@Forge @TheKillerNacho @ET80 @mse326 @The LBC @Norm

[Mr Bad Example]

Hutson's dominance was startling - even aside from 1942, he was outpacing entire TEAMS' passing numbers. His career td record stood for 44 years. He is clearly on a very short list of, if not best, most dominant performers in NFL history. 

 

However, I think the era Rice played in was superior in every way - more sophistication on offense and defense, better training and nutrition (though still not near what we have 30  yrs later in either respect), integrated league, higher level of competition across the board - so while Rice wasn't outpacing entire teams, he WAS outpacing ridiculously talented WRs such as Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Rison, Henry Ellard, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, etc, and due to his amazing longevity, had TWO HoF caliber careers if you split his numbers in half by any arbitrary standard (home/away, first half/second half of games/seasons/career). 

I think Rice is probably the better player, but all things being equal, I'd be surprised if a Don Hutson born in 1992 wasn't able to make it in the NFL. He had speed, he had hands, he had enough size and toughness. He'd be fine. 

[ZenoRazon]

10 minutes ago, bzane said:

Oh, I'm just a secret fan of yours from before, Brother Brutal!

Always admired your encyclopedic knowledge of track stats, especially 100-yard-dash times; your great stores of NFL history; your intractable forensic style and Never-Say-Die attitude in discussions here!

Me, I've been straightened out enough times on these boards- by @jrry32 about Jared Goff; by @Wyld Stallyns about Andrew Luck; by the smart fans of the Eagles and the Packers more times than I care to remember- to know when to admit defeat; I can only read and admire in awed wonder at your aggressiveness in argument.

But- why the screen-name change and new I.D., Brother Brutal? Knew right away you were the same guy, but why the mysterious new iteration?

@Forge @TheKillerNacho @ET80 @mse326 @The LBC @Norm

I appreciate that, thank you very much Brother bzane

I don't want to sound cocky, arrogant,  but Brutal tends to ....ah...hmmm?....you're that history guy, huh? Would  rather talk about sports and not...Brutal.

But this is cool, not a real big deal

[ZenoRazon]

7 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Hutson's dominance was startling - even aside from 1942, he was outpacing entire TEAMS' passing numbers. His career td record stood for 44 years. He is clearly on a very short list of, if not best, most dominant performers in NFL history. 

 

However, I think the era Rice played in was superior in every way - more sophistication on offense and defense, better training and nutrition (though still not near what we have 30  yrs later in either respect), integrated league, higher level of competition across the board - so while Rice wasn't outpacing entire teams, he WAS outpacing ridiculously talented WRs such as Sterling Sharpe, Herman Moore, Andre Rison, Henry Ellard, Tim Brown, Cris Carter, etc, and due to his amazing longevity, had TWO HoF caliber careers if you split his numbers in half by any arbitrary standard (home/away, first half/second half of games/seasons/career). 

I think Rice is probably the better player, but all things being equal, I'd be surprised if a Don Hutson born in 1992 wasn't able to make it in the NFL. He had speed, he had hands, he had enough size and toughness. He'd be fine. 

That just ain't right, yes, yes, yes and well....yes.  You nailed it my friend.

I do think how freakish Hutson must have looked back then. There was nobody to compare him to. And he could play today.

[Pugger]

39 minutes ago, Mr Bad Example said:

Hutson and Herber/Isbell under Lambeau were the first passing game to operate with any level of sophistication, as far as running routes; other teams were basically "yeah, go out, run around, and when you get open, I'll throw it"; reportedly GB was the first team to have a plan of "run 15 yds, cut inside, and I'll throw it when you cut" - sounds alarmingly basic right now, but it was a huge revelation back then. 

Also, Hutson's best seasons (41-44) came when most other able bodied men were away fighting WW2, and also his entire career was played pre-integration; so not only was the sport missing a large chunk of the best athletes due to race, but for another half of his career it was missing at lot of great athletes from even the diminished pool of talent. 

 

That said, he was dominant prior to 1941, and no one really runs down the numbers oft the other HoF players who played from 41-45 , so these criticisms probably hold SOME water, but not much.  

Yes, all of this is true but it took DECADES before most of his NFL records were broken so it wasn't just the war and pre-integration.   If he were in his prime today would he have had the training and conditioning players have today?  Perhaps.  He wouldn't be the top WR in the league but he wouldn't be the worst either.

[Norm]

5 hours ago, bzane said:

Oh, I'm just a secret fan of yours from before, Brother Brutal!

Always admired your encyclopedic knowledge of track stats, especially 100-yard-dash times; your great stores of NFL history; your intractable forensic style and Never-Say-Die attitude in discussions here!

Me, I've been straightened out enough times on these boards- by @jrry32 about Jared Goff; by @Wyld Stallyns about Andrew Luck; by the smart fans of the Eagles and the Packers more times than I care to remember- to know when to admit defeat; I can only read and admire in awed wonder at your aggressiveness in argument.

But- why the screen-name change and new I.D., Brother Brutal? Knew right away you were the same guy, but why the mysterious new iteration?

@Forge @TheKillerNacho @ET80 @mse326 @The LBC @Norm

I was excited you tagged me until I saw it was ccrider returning lol

[Danger]

On 12/20/2018 at 11:42 AM, El ramster said:

Hudson wouldn't even be a top 200 WR in todays game. 

It's true.

[Norm]

11 minutes ago, Danger said:

It's true.

Would he play college? I need to know. Of the maybe 12 plays that exist of him publicly, not all are offense and some he's barely in frame. Just how good would he be? How good is a guy nobody here has seen play a snap. I'm dying to know.

 

Okay, semi kidding, it's all very very very likely true. But still.