the green bay packers vefrsus the detroit loins 2019 MNF (week 5): the return of the incomparable tony brown PART DEUX

[KFP7]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As fans of the sport, I think this is a dangerous mentality.

I don't care about the sport, or the team, or the circumstances: games shouldn't end due to bad calls. It does the fans, players and teams a disservice. Sure, it's the Lions here. It was the Packers weeks ago. It was the Saints in the playoffs. This isn't good, and shouldn't happen.

We, as fans, should constantly pressure the league to try and ensure that this doesn't happen. The better team should win on their own merits, not aided by the refs.

(Your argument here is also pretty questionable, considering that the Packers held a lead in this game for 0 seconds. They weren't impressive by any means, and were likely worse statistically. When you say "if you don't suck", you should consider the performances of both teams.)

The Packers outplayed the Lions in just about every way minus the big turnover difference (which obviously is very important).  First Downs: 22 - 13 Pack. Total Yards: 447 - 299 Pack (with the Lions having one more drive).  TOP - 33:04 - 26:56 Pack.  Turnovers 0 - 3 Lions.  

[TheBitzMan]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As fans of the sport, I think this is a dangerous mentality.

I don't care about the sport, or the team, or the circumstances: games shouldn't end due to bad calls. It does the fans, players and teams a disservice. Sure, it's the Lions here. It was the Packers weeks ago. It was the Saints in the playoffs. This isn't good, and shouldn't happen.

We, as fans, should constantly pressure the league to try and ensure that this doesn't happen. The better team should win on their own merits, not aided by the refs.

(Your argument here is also pretty questionable, considering that the Packers held a lead in this game for 0 seconds. They weren't impressive by any means, and were likely worse statistically. When you say "if you don't suck", you should consider the performances of both teams.)

The Packers were pretty clearly the better team during the game and dominated every statistical category outside of turnovers. Was it a bad call? Yes. Did the better team win anyways? Yes. 

Maybe the Lions should try closing teams out before blaming losses on calls. I honestly wish that call was never made so Crosby could've made the FG any ways and then the Lions could've gone 3 and out to end the game. 

[Sasquatch]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Where else would I go for a dissenting perspective? The general forum? Nope. Everyone agrees. Not much of a discussion to have there.

I enjoy discussion, which is why I'm here. We had a quality discussion about the Hockenson end zone incompletion, which provided quality perspective.

Just discussion man. Some questioned whether Flowers' facemask was contacted, so I posted a video that showed it was. Just discussion.

Ok.  Are you prepared to accept our opinions of the events as we saw them, even if they differ from yours, or those of the good people over at the general forum?  If so, then there's really not much more to discuss.  

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

Can you show me a sport, especially a live action sport, where bad calls don't ever affect games?

Really, I get the frustration.  But your are hopelessly naive if you think that bad calls can be eliminated from the game.

Flowers facemask being transiently contacted doesn't necessarily make a a facemask penalty as you originally asserted, and I think you probably know that as well.

Re-watch the clip, beginning at the 12 second mark. I don't think it's questionable that Flowers' facemask was grabbed and pushed. It belongs in this discussion because of the bad call on Flowers: the ref called something that didn't happen and didn't call something that was at least in the discussion.

[vegas492]

2 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

See, this is an interesting perspective. In other words: no bad call is ever relevant. No bad call ever defines a game, or helps to determine an outcome. I don't agree.

I believe that refs, just like players and coaches, impact the game, and their performances are fair game to discuss.

No.  Not in other words.

What I'm saying is...crap happens.  Deal with it.  Just like every other team that is on the short end of the stick.  It happens.  It stinks, but it does happen.  It's not like anything that is said or done now is going to reverse the decision.

You can't take the human element out of the officiating.  Or else there will be a flag on every play.

If you are that up in arms about the non-calls, boycott the NFL.  That'll show them.

Or...just maybe....keep watching and see how your team reacts from the prior week.  They should come out hot and heavy.  

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Re-watch the clip, beginning at the 12 second mark. I don't think it's questionable that Flowers' facemask was grabbed and pushed. It belongs in this discussion because of the bad call on Flowers: the ref called something that didn't happen and didn't call something that was at least in the discussion.

It is questionable because of the speed of the clip.  In real time it is not significant.  You choose to ignore this point.  By rule, the contact you quote should not be called. 

Here is the rule:

RULE SUMMARY VIEW OFFICIAL RULE

ILLEGAL BLOCK BY OFFENSIVE PLAYER

It is a foul if an offensive blocker:

1. Thrusts his hands forward above the frame of an opponent to contact him on the head, neck, or face

Note: Contact in close-line play that is not direct and forcible is not a foul.

TWISTING, PULLING, OR TURNING THE FACEMASK

No player shall grasp and control, twist, turn, push, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction.

Note: If a player grasps an opponent’s facemask, he must immediately release it. If he does not immediately release it and controls his opponent, it is a foul.

Penalty: For twisting, turning, pushing, pulling, or controlling the mask: Loss of 15 yards. The player may be disqualified if the action is flagrant. If the foul is by the defense, it is also an automatic first down.

 

 

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

Just now, vegas492 said:

No.  Not in other words.

What I'm saying is...crap happens.  Deal with it.  Just like every other team that is on the short end of the stick.  It happens.  It stinks, but it does happen.  It's not like anything that is said or done now is going to reverse the decision.

You can't take the human element out of the officiating.  Or else there will be a flag on every play.

If you are that up in arms about the non-calls, boycott the NFL.  That'll show them.

Or...just maybe....keep watching and see how your team reacts from the prior week.  They should come out hot and heavy.  

Why is there a notion that I'm not "dealing with it" because I want to have a reasonable discussion on a football forum? It's such a confusing stance.

Just discussion man.

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

1 minute ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

It is questionable because of the speed of the clip.  In real time it is not significant.  You choose to ignore this point.  By rule, the contact you quote should not be called. 

Here is the rule:

RULE SUMMARY VIEW OFFICIAL RULE

ILLEGAL BLOCK BY OFFENSIVE PLAYER

It is a foul if an offensive blocker:

1. Thrusts his hands forward above the frame of an opponent to contact him on the head, neck, or face

Note: Contact in close-line play that is not direct and forcible is not a foul.

TWISTING, PULLING, OR TURNING THE FACEMASK

No player shall grasp and control, twist, turn, push, or pull the facemask of an opponent in any direction.

Note: If a player grasps an opponent’s facemask, he must immediately release it. If he does not immediately release it and controls his opponent, it is a foul.

Penalty: For twisting, turning, pushing, pulling, or controlling the mask: Loss of 15 yards. The player may be disqualified if the action is flagrant. If the foul is by the defense, it is also an automatic first down.

Interesting.

I must ask, and, if you'd rather not have this discussion, I completely understand: was the facemask call on Rodgers years ago (the play before the hail mary) a valid facemask call?

[Striker]

10 minutes ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

As fans of the sport, I think this is a dangerous mentality.

I don't care about the sport, or the team, or the circumstances: games shouldn't end due to bad calls. It does the fans, players and teams a disservice. Sure, it's the Lions here. It was the Packers weeks ago. It was the Saints in the playoffs. This isn't good, and shouldn't happen.

We, as fans, should constantly pressure the league to try and ensure that this doesn't happen. The better team should win on their own merits, not aided by the refs.

(Your argument here is also pretty questionable, considering that the Packers held a lead in this game for 0 seconds. They weren't impressive by any means, and were likely worse statistically. When you say "if you don't suck", you should consider the performances of both teams.)

Bad calls happen. NFL officiating has a lot of things to clean up. I do think it would benefit them to get younger officials in there, maybe set a mandatory retirement age. It's a young man's game, you should try to keep those on the field who can keep up physically and are at their mental peak as well.

With that being said - we also have to remember that we, as fans, get to watch each call in slow motion from multiple camera angles. Refs generally get one shot in real time from one angle. If you think about Bakh's head movement I could see how an official could see hands to face while moving at real time. However, most fans won't think like that. And so we get outrage towards officials at all levels of the game (regardless of the sport) and a talent drain with young officials because, honestly, who would want to put up with this **** from fans/players/coaches?

Also:

I have no idea how you could say "were likely worse statistically". This is something you could *literally* look up.

The Packers had 22 first downs to Detroit's 13. 170 rushing yards to 56. 283 passing yards to 265. 3 sacks to 1. 6 penalties to 8. And 33:04 TOP to Detroit's 26:56. The only area they trailed was the scoreboard and the turnover margin.

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Interesting.

I must ask, and, if you'd rather not have this discussion, I completely understand: was the facemask call on Rodgers years ago (the play before the hail mary) a valid facemask call?

If you were wanting a knowledgeable discussion, you would have noted long ago the difference in how the NFL views the QB and his helmet vs the close-line play of linemen.  

 

 

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

7 minutes ago, Striker said:

Bad calls happen. NFL officiating has a lot of things to clean up. I do think it would benefit them to get younger officials in there, maybe set a mandatory retirement age. It's a young man's game, you should try to keep those on the field who can keep up physically and are at their mental peak as well.

With that being said - we also have to remember that we, as fans, get to watch each call in slow motion from multiple camera angles. Refs generally get one shot in real time from one angle. If you think about Bakh's head movement I could see how an official could see hands to face while moving at real time. However, most fans won't think like that. And so we get outrage towards officials at all levels of the game (regardless of the sport) and a talent drain with young officials because, honestly, who would want to put up with this **** from fans/players/coaches?

Also:

I have no idea how you could say "were likely worse statistically". This is something you could *literally* look up.

The Packers had 22 first downs to Detroit's 13. 170 rushing yards to 56. 283 passing yards to 265. 3 sacks to 1. 6 penalties to 8. And 33:04 TOP to Detroit's 26:56. The only area they trailed was the scoreboard and the turnover margin.

Great post, great points.

I could look it up... but I've looked up so much nonsense over the last few hours and decided not to. You're right: statistically, the Packers were superior in most categories.

That being said, I think this provokes another conversation, and one that some might call "whining". In my opinion, the Lions had key drives stopped with questionable officiating decisions, while the Packers had drives extended by penalties on 3rd down, including both TD drives. (The Kerryon incompletion and the missed DPI were both on 3rd down, and both ended drives.) No, the calls weren't the reason that we lost, but those calls matter in terms of yards, TOP, first downs, etc.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[TL-TwoWinsAway]

5 minutes ago, Ragnar Danneskjold said:

If you were wanting a knowledgeable discussion, you would have noted long ago the difference in how the NFL views the QB and his helmet vs the close-line play of linemen.  

In the spirit of having a "reasonable discussion": Rodgers' was scrambling around and out of the pocket when this contact occurred. That, and the rules do not denote this difference. We as fans shouldn't accept it, either.

At the time that the Rodgers facemask was called, fans claimed that it was a clear example of a good facemask call. That tone has seemingly changed.

Edited October 16, 2019 by TL-TwoWinsAway

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

Just now, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

In the spirit of having a "reasonable discussion": Rodgers' was scrambling around and out of the pocket when this contact occurred. That, and the rules do not denote this difference. We as fans shouldn't accept it, either.

It hasn't mattered.  The NFL has protected the QB's head to level not afforded other players, both inside and outside the pocket for years.  

I am sure that Rodger Goodell cares about your opinion and will get right on it.

[Nick_gb]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

In the spirit of having a "reasonable discussion": Rodgers' was scrambling around and out of the pocket when this contact occurred. That, and the rules do not denote this difference. We as fans shouldn't accept it, either.

The fact it's now Wednesday and we're still discussing this as if it was the only deciding factor as to why the Lions lost is redundant. There were a lot of things that decided this game, not just the blown call and the Packers were still in FG position at that point with just over a minute and 0 timeouts left for Detroit. There's no guarantee they would have won. 

[KFP7]

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

Great post, great points.

I could look it up... but I've looked up so much nonsense over the last few hours and decided not to. You're right: statistically, the Packers were superior in most categories.

That being said, I think this provokes another conversation, and one that some might call "whining". In my opinion, the Lions had key drives stopped with questionable officiating decisions, while the Packers had drives extended by penalties. (The Kerryon incompletion and the missed DPI were both on 3rd down, and both ended drives.) No, the calls weren't the reason that we lost, but those calls matter in terms of yards, TOP, first downs, etc.

I could be wrong here, but the Kerryon incompletion was considered the correct call even though the rule of a catch is still stupid.  He didn't get three steps with control.  Yes the calls hurt the Lions but other than those two big plays your offense could not do anything.  

1 minute ago, TL-TwoWinsAway said:

In the spirit of having a "reasonable discussion": Rodgers' was scrambling around and out of the pocket when this contact occurred. That, and the rules do not denote this difference. We as fans shouldn't accept it, either.

To make it worse Rodgers was actually a runner on that play, as he had just gotten a lateral.