Josh Allen is an ELITE QB

[3rivers]

1 minute ago, ronjon1990 said:

To be 100% fair, I've gone on record I have the Bills winning it all this year. Allen just needs to not go down as another Dilfer/Flacco and he'll be just fine. 

I hope the steelers can get another SB with Ben nearing the end unless he decides to play another 5 years.  Bills could be a threat, see how the defence is , because chances are they will face (sooner or later ) in the playoffs

Chiefs

Ravens

Steelers

 

The bill barely beat the steelers last year with QB3/4 starting, not ben. As for the other 2 teams, they are a different story, and I expect several blowouts this year courtesy of them.  

[Jakuvious]

3 hours ago, Ray Reed said:

As an unbiased observer of this whole VanS/Josh Allen saga all summer I’ll say this, and it won’t be popular but w/e

VanS argued all summer that Josh Allen was better than he’s been given credit for so far in his career. A lot of people spent a lot of time arguing against that notion. Josh Allen comes out on fire, and VanS lets people know about it. Just like many people on this site would if they got as much backlash as he got over the summer.

But a lot of people on this site don’t like that VanS guy, for whatever reason, so they’ll continue to fight tooth and nail against Allen’s successes early and often. And they’ll keep arguing semantics and pick and choose certain phrases to argue but the fact of the matter is that Josh Allen looks great, VanS feels vindicated and will do a victory lap so long as Allen keeps playing well, the people that spent their summer arguing him will never want to concede a shred of ground to him because of how dismissive they were of his entire football world view, and no one’s going to budge on any of that. 

It iz what it izzzz

So, my 2 cents on this, is that if Vans had simply said that he thinks Josh Allen will become an elite QB, I would've remained silent. It's the fact that he said he already was one, when he clearly and universally was NOT, and then bumped the thread to retroactively prove his point. And it isn't Vans or Josh Allen specific. Someone saying Lamar Jackson was elite in 2018 would've been equally foolish. Or Peyton in 1998. I would've been objectively wrong to call Mahomes elite in 2017, regardless of what 2018 brought. There is such a critical and substantial difference between saying "X player will become elite," and saying "X player is elite," and that's the difference between this thread getting some minor discussion and getting disagreement, and getting a thread full of people who think Vans doesn't know what he's talking about, and then bragging about it later. You can call that semantics, but that's a hugely different argument. If he had said he believed he'd become elite, fine, give him his pat on the back. But since he said he already was, in the middle of a season where Allen was still struggling with inconsistent accuracy overall, poor deep ball touch, placement, and accuracy, and was on a team carried by a stronger defense than offense, he's still going to get ridiculed instead of getting congratulated.

Also, for the record, minor putting the mod hat on here moment, bumping 9 month old threads to brag about how right or wrong you or someone else is has always generally not been a thing on this forum. So that alone was a bad look for the thread in the first place.

[jrry32]

1 hour ago, KhanYouDigIt said:

Rams are gonna make him look foolish this week when Ramsey locks down Diggs.

Lets get it @El Ramster

Well, we have easily the best secondary he's faced so far. I watched him float a ball to Diggs near the end of that game that should have been picked. Darious Williams's interception of Wentz in the end-zone was a far more difficult play, but the Dolphins CB didn't try to play the ball. I'm not saying Allen is bad. Just saying that he needs to prove it against some better defenses before we start anointing him anything.

[KhanYouDigIt]

1 minute ago, jrry32 said:

Well, we have easily the best secondary he's faced so far. I watched him float a ball to Diggs near the end of that game that should have been picked. Darious Williams's interception of Wentz in the end-zone was a far more difficult play, but the Dolphins CB didn't try to play the ball. I'm not saying Allen is bad. Just saying that he needs to prove it against some better defenses before we start anointing him anything.

Can’t disagree there. Rams will be a good test for him.

[SmittyBacall]

I don’t understand how the Miami game of all games justifies this bump. There was nothing spectacular about that performance from what I saw; certainly nothing that would classify him as elite, (depending on how ridiculously loose your definition is). I just finished watching it on game pass. He still has the same warts in his game that he did last year. He missed a large handful of throws and his ball placement and accuracy continues to be inconsistent. Yes, he’s a physical marvel and can make the rare “wow” play. But there is no way the consistency or accuracy needs to be to justify this stance.

There’s just no way you can reasonably say he’s on Russ’, Mahomes’, or even Lamar’s level (unless of course you are forcing an agenda and are dead set in preconceived draft notions). He’s on the tier of talented young QBs with still a ton to prove. Could he be elite? Possibly. Is he right now? Hell no.

[Billsfaninptown]

37 minutes ago, SmittyBacall said:

I don’t understand how the Miami game of all games justifies this bump. There was nothing spectacular about that performance from what I saw; certainly nothing that would classify him as elite, (depending on how ridiculously loose your definition is). I just finished watching it on game pass. He still has the same warts in his game that he did last year. He missed a large handful of throws and his ball placement and accuracy continues to be inconsistent. Yes, he’s a physical marvel and can make the rare “wow” play. But there is no way the consistency or accuracy needs to be to justify this stance.

There’s just no way you can reasonably say he’s on Russ’, Mahomes’, or even Lamar’s level (unless of course you are forcing an agenda and are dead set in preconceived draft notions). He’s on the tier of talented young QBs with still a ton to prove. Could he be elite? Possibly. Is he right now? Hell no.

He missed a large handful of throws? Please elaborate. Also, doesn't every QB miss throws? He threw for over 400 yards and 4 touchdowns for crying out loud. Not sure what he could have done in your eyes to get high praise? Maybe he needed 500 yards and a perfect QB rating? Then would you give him a high grade?

I feel like Josh Allen's mistakes get magnified because a lot of people still want to be right about their pre-draft prediction. I was definitely against drafting Josh Allen. I thought he had too many fundamental flaws to overcome, but in a little over 2 years, it's hard to argue that he isn't much improved and trending in the right direction. My biggest problem with the naysayers is that they bring up anecdotal points. I am not saying Josh Allen is elite, because that would be ridiculous. He definitely has the chance to though. He has zero physical limitations. Now he just needs to become more consistent. By all accounts he seems to be a great leader and puts in the time. We shall see. Go Bills!

[Soko]

6 minutes ago, Billsfaninptown said:

it's hard to argue that he isn't much improved and trending in the right direction.

It’s even harder to find a single person that’s raised that as a serious point of contention. Just about impossible, I’d say.

 

[Piquel]

Holy thread dumpster diving.  How is this not locked.  I was reading this like it was this season.   It wasn't until people started arguing playoff positions I was thinking after 2 games playoffs???  Then I looked at the date. Ok I see now.

[VanS]

8 hours ago, jrry32 said:

Nobody gets called elite because they beat up on bad teams. I'll believe it when I see it over a sustained period against some good or better competition.

Obviously he will need to play well against good teams as well.  My point there was other QBs also get to play against bad teams but they don't dominate them the way Josh has thus far.  700+ yards, 6 TDs, and 0 picks in back to back games is incredible regardless of the opponent.  If his success thus far was only due to the opponents he's played, then we would see QBs putting up these type of numbers routinely to start seasons.  Because as I said earlier, Josh Allen isn't the first QB to open a season with two weak opponents.  But we don't see that.  In fact, we've only seen a start like this 3 times in the past.  From the likes of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Patrick Mahomes.

When you are on a list with names like that then it means something regardless of how small the sample size is. 

[VanS]

7 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

That's the thing, I haven't seen many people say he can't be elite. The major criticism of him has been of the "if he puts it together" variety. He's improved tremendously imo. But to sing one's own praises for Allen's improvement to this point as proof of his status as an elite QB is just obnoxious box score scouting. 

He's big, he can make plays with his arm and legs, he's got a howitzer of a right arm. He has all of the makings of an elite QB. He seems tl have the confidence of his coaches and teammates. But he's nowhere near top 8 in the current league status yet. Compared to his time at Wyoming, he's 100× better, which is saying something considering his mechanics coming out, the situation in Buffalo, and the uncertainty about their HC following his rookie year. It's absolutely night and day, and nobody is arguing about that much. But to say he's elite and thus VanS was correct about him is beyond a stretch. 

It would be one thing if people were routinely calling him a bust in the first place. But to my recollection, the general consensus, even on here, was that he could be special once he figured out the nuances of being an NFL QB. With that being the case, the only gains to be had for arguing that he's already elite on VanS' end is to brag for bragging's sake. It's obnoxious and distasteful, leads to zero critical analysis of Josh Allen's progress, and really just comes across as a way to pretend make up for the countless bad takes he's made and stood by. 

If Josh Allen becomes truly elite, I don't think many people who keep close track of football will be all that surprised. So it's not just a hot take, but a cheap one at that. A good comparison would be someone saying that Marcus Lattimore was going to be elite when the 49ers drafted him in the 4th round and using his 4th round status as justification that it was a sage pick. Literally nobody would've been surprised if he became a top 5 back in the league if that injury hadn't prematurely ended his career. Some may have had reasons to be skeptical, as some have with Allen, but it wouldn't have been a huge case of "Oh man, I was totally wrong, he's really good. Good call, VanS". It would be an eye roll that he hitched his wagon to it in the first place because it's not like the doubters were far and wide. It's just cheap gloating masquerading as wisdom and scouting prowess. 

And that's what attracts the harsh criticisms of his posts and said gloating. 

You obviously didn't read that long thread from earlier this summer about the NFL Top 100 list that ended up being about Josh Allen.

The issue wasn't whether Allen would eventually be great.  The issue was how good was he already.  I have maintained from the moment he was drafted in 2018 that he was special.  I didn't see this raw prospect who needed lots of developing.  I saw a baller whose talent was not being properly valued on the stat sheet because of the lack of talent around him.  I maintained that same position with regard to his first 2 years at Buffalo.  I argued the Bills had one of the least talented group of skill position players in the league and it was this lack of talent around that was hiding how great he already was.  I said that once the Bills started to put some competant pieces around him, the box score metrics would start to catch up to his actual skill set.

What you're talking about is not what we are even debating.  The pre-draft stuff is over.  This thread was started by me after the Thanksgiving game last year when I first started arguing he was elite.  I was basing that on his impact LAST YEAR.  I spent this entire summer arguing that Josh Allen was already a great QB.  He just needed the horses alongside him to show the world.  He's got a crew around him now and the box scores are finally matching the ability he always had. 

[Scoundrel]

3 minutes ago, VanS said:

You obviously didn't read that long thread from earlier this summer about the NFL Top 100 list that ended up being about Josh Allen.

The issue wasn't whether Allen would eventually be great.  The issue was how good was he already.  I have maintained from the moment he was drafted in 2018 that he was special.  I didn't see this raw prospect who needed lots of developing.  I saw a baller whose talent was not being properly valued on the stat sheet because of the lack of talent around him.  I maintained that same position with regard to his first 2 years at Buffalo.  I argued the Bills had one of the least talented group of skill position players in the league and it was this lack of talent around that was hiding how great he already was.  I said that once the Bills started to put some competant pieces around him, the box score metrics would start to catch up to his actual skill set.

What you're talking about is not what we are even debating.  The pre-draft stuff is over.  This thread was started by me after the Thanksgiving game last year when I first started arguing he was elite.  I was basing that on his impact LAST YEAR.  I spent this entire summer arguing that Josh Allen was already a great QB.  He just needed the horses alongside him to show the world.  He's got a crew around him now and the box scores are finally matching the ability he always had. 

[Scoundrel]

[VanS]

6 hours ago, GSUeagles14 said:

i dont think too many, if any at all, have said allen wasnt promising so far in his career. people liked allen going into this year in fact. @VanS has argued hes elite and this year will show it, which then retroactively proves he was elite all along. people diagareed with that logic obviously, aa its horrendously bad. 

So you think a guy can go from mediocre/below average to MVP candidate in an off-season? 

Or was Josh Allen better than the box score metrics valued him last year and all we're seeing now is a course correction on the stat sheet due to the improved talent around him on offense?

I argued all summer that Josh Allen was already great but the numbers didn't show it because he had one of the worst offensive supporting casts in the league.  I said his impact last year was herculean given what he had around him.  I posited future success as my proof for his present day greatness.  I said once he got some pieces around him (like Stefon Diggs) the box score metrics would finally start to capture just how good he already was.  Thus far this year he's doing exactly that.

For my theory here to be wrong, you have to believe Josh Allen went from being mediocre/below average to elite in one off-season.  Its why so many are fighting against labeling him elite through 2 games.  They made up their minds based on last year on the level of player Josh Allen is.  So to most people this is just a hot streak and he'll regress back to where he was last year because most people don't think you can go from mediocre to elite in one off-season.  However, if he does keep this up then I expect there to be reviosionist history on him as there was with Lamar Jackson last year.  Its funny how Lamar is now accepted as elite when at this time last year he had as many doubters as Allen.  

[TecmoSuperJoe]

29 minutes ago, VanS said:

Obviously he will need to play well against good teams as well.  My point there was other QBs also get to play against bad teams but they don't dominate them the way Josh has thus far.  700+ yards, 6 TDs, and 0 picks in back to back games is incredible regardless of the opponent.  If his success thus far was only due to the opponents he's played, then we would see QBs putting up these type of numbers routinely to start seasons.  Because as I said earlier, Josh Allen isn't the first QB to open a season with two weak opponents.  But we don't see that.  In fact, we've only seen a start like this 3 times in the past.  From the likes of Peyton Manning, Tom Brady, and Patrick Mahomes.

When you are on a list with names like that then it means something regardless of how small the sample size is. 

Wilson just threw 9 touchdowns in two games to start a season. Don't forget him. 

 

Edited September 23, 2020 by TecmoSuperJoe

[TecmoSuperJoe]

Now that I think of it, Lynn Dickey also threw 8 touchdowns to start the season in 1983 his best year. Hopefully Allen has a better career than that.