Around the NFL III - The NFLiest Yet

[Forge]

5 minutes ago, Justone2 said:

I think overall his track record in terms of players isn't terrible both in the draft and FA. the draft in 2012 was terrible and 2013 wasn't all that good. In general the whole 2014 season leaves all of us with a really bad taste in our mouths but i feel Harbaugh had as much to do with that as Baalke has if not more. Baalke is a strange guy but the overall nature of Jim was really overbearing for most guys and it just burned them out. 

I was actually a pretty vocal supporter of his early year free agent moves. I always questioned why he didn't add more when we were a bad team with a bunch of space...the year he only added Zane was mind boggling.

[J-ALL-DAY]

Just now, Justone2 said:

The 2019 defense also had a rough spell when Ford, Alexander and Tartt where out. If you judge purely by the postseason 2019 clearly wins sure. But comparing a defense having all its key pieces healthy to one that misses two of its top 5 players isn't really fair and even in 2019 i still clearly remember games like the Saints one where we couldn't slow Brees down one bit. Or the Steelers game where Verrett got picked apart.

Right, but even as a whole they played better for the entire season and more importantly, dominated FAR more in the playoffs...The playoffs is the most important factor. I'm sorry, but a defense that falls apart in the playoffs opposed to seeing what the 2019 defense did against THREE top offense? It's a no contest for me. And the Smith brothers were banged up, but they at least played in the playoffs. The spill you are talking about in 2019 consisted of all those players being OUT. That's a big difference right there. 

The 2012 defense was better against the run no doubt, but were NEVER on the level of the 2019 against the pass at any point of the season. In terms of DVOA and everything, the 2019 wins fairly easy. It becomes a better debate comparing it against the 2011 defense. 

[Justone2]

Just now, Forge said:

I was actually a pretty vocal supporter of his early year free agent moves. I always questioned why he didn't add more when we were a bad team with a bunch of space...the year he only added Zane was mind boggling.

The FA's we signed in 2011 where such a huge part in putting the team over the top. Those later years where strange like you said but it almost felt like he wanted to build a base first with picks before going big in FA. 

[Justone2]

1 minute ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Right, but even as a whole they played better for the entire season and more importantly, dominated FAR more in the playoffs...The playoffs is the most important factor. I'm sorry, but a defense that falls apart in the playoffs opposed to seeing what the 2019 defense did against THREE top offense? It's a no contest for me. And the Smith brothers were banged up, but they at least played in the playoffs. The spill you are talking about in 2019 consisted of all those players being OUT. That's a big difference right there. 

The 2012 defense was better against the run no doubt, but were NEVER on the level of the 2019 against the pass at any point of the season. In terms of DVOA and everything, the 2019 wins fairly easy. It becomes a better debate comparing it against the 2011 defense. 

I might be putting 2011 and 2012 together in my mind. I always felt with that 2019 defense we where lights out for 3 quarters but had trouble keeping it up in the 4th if the margin wasn't big enough. Offcourse the Smith brothers where playing but in general Justin was a net loss with the way he could play. So yeah he played but at like 70% of what he could which made it almost the same as if he didn't play. In terms of feel the Fangio defense just felt more suffocating for the opposition where 2019 was really dominant against the pass in terms of limiting completions and YAC but wasn't the bully 2011/2012 was at its peak with 2019 i never truly felt comfortable if it was close at the end of a game. 

[J-ALL-DAY]

5 minutes ago, Justone2 said:

I might be putting 2011 and 2012 together in my mind. I always felt with that 2019 defense we where lights out for 3 quarters but had trouble keeping it up in the 4th if the margin wasn't big enough. Offcourse the Smith brothers where playing but in general Justin was a net loss with the way he could play. So yeah he played but at like 70% of what he could which made it almost the same as if he didn't play. In terms of feel the Fangio defense just felt more suffocating for the opposition where 2019 was really dominant against the pass in terms of limiting completions and YAC but wasn't the bully 2011/2012 was at its peak with 2019 i never truly felt comfortable if it was close at the end of a game. 

We definitely had some problems closing games out, but they were just damn good aside from that stretch where we didn't have three key contributors on defense. The fact that we did so good against three top 10 defenses in the playoffs can't be ignored though. 2012, the defense just failed us big time in the playoffs. It didn't have nearly the coverage ability of 2019. Now, that defense was built different too though, more for physicality and stopping the run. 

I think just how the 2012 team was built all around makes it seem more physical and better. That defense also had more proven big name players while the 2019 defense had young budding stars (Bosa/Warner/etc). 

2011 defense though? Now it becomes a serious and legitimate debate. That defense was vicious and played well in the playoffs. Sure Brees got going late in the game, but before the last 8 or so minutes of the game they were ferocious and dominant. Same against the Giants. 

2011 defense with 2012 offense and we WALK away with the SB. 

[757-NINER]

2 hours ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

2019 for me. They were just lights out in coverage when everyone was healthy. Even Mahomes had one of his worst games against that defense.

2012, the defense just completely fell apart in the playoffs. And yes both Smith brothers were hurt but you just can't ignore how badly they got lit up. Ryan put up over 400 yards and then we couldn't stop Flacco at all. It isn't all that close to me.

Better question is 2019 vs 2011. 

Notice I said completely healthy. I'm not talking about production or who had a better run in the post-season. I'm talking man for man, talent vs talent...which unit which you rather have?

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Notice I said completely healthy. I'm not talking about production or who had a better run in the post-season. I'm talking man for man, talent vs talent...which unit which you rather have?

Still 2019, better in coverage and that's ultimately what matters more. 

[757-NINER]

12 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

Still 2019, better in coverage and that's ultimately what matters more. 

Interesting. I have to go with 2012. I've always loved Fangio's scheme and man for man, I think they were a more talented team. Aldon took the league by storm as a pass-rushing force his first year as a starter. Cowboy was still one of the most dominant interior players in the league. Ray McDonald was underrated af. Brooks was solid on the strong-side. You had both Bow & Willis in their prime. Goldson & Hitner were heat seeking missles@safety. And TB, Rogers, Culliver & Cox were as good of a CB foursome as one could have hoped for. Not to mention pretty good depth along the interior with players like RJF & Jerod-Eddie. I think 2019's unit was statically better but 2012 unit just does it for me. I still remember us going into Foxboro on a cold Monday Night in December and completely shutting down Brady and Belchick. That was unheard of back then...

Edited January 21, 2021 by 757-NINER

[J-ALL-DAY]

1 minute ago, 757-NINER said:

Interesting. I have to go with 2012. I've always loved Fangio's scheme and man for man, I think they were a more talented team. Aldon took the league by storm as a pass-rushing force his first year as a starter. Cowboy was still one of the most dominant interior players in the league. Ray McDonald was underrated af. Brooks was solid on the strong-side. You had both Bow & Willis in their prime. Goldson & Hitner were heat seeking missles@safety. And TB, Rogers, Culliver & Cox were as good of a CB foursome as one could have hoped for. Not to mention pretty good depth along the interior with players like RJF & Jerod-Eddie. I think 2019's unit was statically better but 2012 unit just does it for me. I still remember us going into Foxboro on a cold Monday Night in December and completely shutting down Brady and Belchick. That was unheard of back then...

The thing is, they shut those guys down early on. After that, Brady and the crew completely picked them apart. Remember, it was 31-3 lead and Brady led four consecutive scoring drives to tie it up at 31-31. Aldon was not healthy at that point though, he got hurt against Miami and wasn't the same.

See this is what I mean. In terms of bigger names, the 2012 team wins. But that's because the 2019 squad had a lot of young studs still emerging. As good as Buckner is, his name isn't as big as Justin Smith's. Bosa was a rookie compared to a proven name in Aldon. Warner was emerging but Bowman/Willis already had names at that point, especially Willis. 

But that team didn't have a corner in the same atmosphere as Sherman. No one was as good as Williams in the slot. Ward/Tartt were just far better and more disciplined in coverage than Whitner/Goldson. 

[757-NINER]

9 minutes ago, J-ALL-DAY said:

The thing is, they shut those guys down early on. After that, Brady and the crew completely picked them apart. Remember, it was 31-3 lead and Brady led four consecutive scoring drives to tie it up at 31-31. Aldon was not healthy at that point though, he got hurt against Miami and wasn't the same.

See this is what I mean. In terms of bigger names, the 2012 team wins. But that's because the 2019 squad had a lot of young studs still emerging. As good as Buckner is, his name isn't as big as Justin Smith's. Bosa was a rookie compared to a proven name in Aldon. Warner was emerging but Bowman/Willis already had names at that point, especially Willis. 

But that team didn't have a corner in the same atmosphere as Sherman. No one was as good as Williams in the slot. Ward/Tartt were just far better and more disciplined in coverage than Whitner/Goldson. 

Aldon wasn't proven though. He emerged that year, same as Bosa in 2019. He was a nickel player in 2011, Harlason was the starter.

And its not about name recognition, its about talent. I just think the 2012 team was more talented and if the two units are completely healthy and I need to pick one to go to battle with, I'm going to lean on the group with the most talent. 

And I'd take Rogers in slot everyday over Williams. Williams was great last year but he couldn't do what Rogers did in terms of starting on the outside then dropping to the nickel and still being above average. You could do alot with a playerr like Rogers from a schematically perspective because he was so versatile.

Edited January 21, 2021 by 757-NINER

[J-ALL-DAY]

3 minutes ago, 757-NINER said:

Aldon wasn't proven though. He emerged that year, same as Bosa in 2019. He was a nickel player in 2011, Harlason was the starter.

And its not about name recognition, its about talent. I just think the 2012 team was more talented and if the two units are completely healthy and I need to pick one to go to battle with, I'm going to lean on the group with the most talent. 

Aldon was coming off a 14.5 sack season and a very good postseason. You can't compare that to Bosa. 

And that is fine. In terms of names, you will always win going with 2012. But I'll take production and a unit that was one of the best covering units of the last 20 years over that one. 

[49ersfan]

Maybe i'm wrong but my indication of the coaching hires this offseason seems to suggest that most if not all teams with QB decisions to be made will maintain the status quo. Thats Falcons with Ryan, Lions with Stafford, Eagles with Wentz, Broncos with Lock & Jets with Darnold. Dolphins probably won't pull the plug on Tua either. And Roethlisberger i think is playing one more year. Brady too. Cowboys will probably re-sign or tag Dak again.

It looks like the Pats, Colts, WFT, Bears, Saints, & Panthers will be in the market for a new QB. If we're moving on from Jimmy, we should have a decent market. And since only the Panthers pick in front of us, we may not have to do a trade up. But it depends on who they like and who we like. I think Shanny/Lynch/Peters prefer Wilson, but its early.

This could all change with a Watson trade though. That could create a ripple effect. But it looks like the Texans are waiting for Bienemy....which may salvage the relationship

[Forge]

16 minutes ago, 49ersfan said:

Maybe i'm wrong but my indication of the coaching hires this offseason seems to suggest that most if not all teams with QB decisions to be made will maintain the status quo. Thats Falcons with Ryan, Lions with Stafford, Eagles with Wentz, Broncos with Lock & Jets with Darnold. Dolphins probably won't pull the plug on Tua either. And Roethlisberger i think is playing one more year. Brady too. Cowboys will probably re-sign or tag Dak again.

It looks like the Pats, Colts, WFT, Bears, Saints, & Panthers will be in the market for a new QB. If we're moving on from Jimmy, we should have a decent market. And since only the Panthers pick in front of us, we may not have to do a trade up. But it depends on who they like and who we like. I think Shanny/Lynch/Peters prefer Wilson, but its early.

This could all change with a Watson trade though. That could create a ripple effect. But it looks like the Texans are waiting for Bienemy....which may salvage the relationship

My same feeling as well, tbh. Dak is probably the most interesting because I don't know how they can tag him. But I don't think Stafford, Ryan, Wentz get moved at this point. 

[NcFinest9erFan]

 

[Ninerholic]

1 hour ago, NcFinest9erFan said:

 

The plot thickens