2018 College Prospect Thread

[champ11]

Just getting that stat out there, interpret it for what you will. I love Barkley. I also think you guys will be more impressed with Jackson as a passer the more you see him throughout the draft process. 

The NFL is archaic when it comes to the QB position. Things are changing though. Not sure how many more seasons the league will reject running as a QB skill and have the level of play that we have at the position today across the league. 

[BroncosFan2010]

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The NFL is archaic when it comes to the QB position. Things are changing though. Not sure how many more seasons the league will reject running as a QB skill and have the level of play that we have at the position today across the league. 

I don't really buy this. The most yards accumulated by a QB this season on the ground is Cam Newton with 464, then Russ Wilson with 401. Followed by a few with yards in the 300 range. Its valuable to scramble, and very valuable to be accurate on the run, but gaining yards on scrambles? Meh. That's never going to be a huge aspect of offenses IMO. If Vick couldn't do it, no one can. Why value a QB that can get 10 yards on a dazzling run that opens him to injury when you can have a QB that sits in the pocket and calmly, effortlessly gets that same 10 yards without opening himself to violent hits. Or even scrambles to the sideline and hits a player before he can become a true target for a defensive player. Its just an inefficient, unnecessarily risky way to play the game.

Its also worth noting that Cam and Russ are built like tanks and Russ especially understands how to avoid hits.

[champ11]

6 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I don't really buy this. The most yards accumulated by a QB this season on the ground is Cam Newton with 464, then Russ Wilson with 401. Followed by a few with yards in the 300 range. Its valuable to scramble, and very valuable to be accurate on the run, but gaining yards on scrambles? Meh. That's never going to be a huge aspect of offenses IMO. If Vick couldn't do it, no one can. Why value a QB that can get 10 yards on a dazzling run that opens him to injury when you can have a QB that sits in the pocket and calmly, effortlessly gets that same 10 yards without opening himself to violent hits. Or even scrambles to the sideline and hits a player before he can become a true target for a defensive player. Its just an inefficient, unnecessarily risky way to play the game.

Its also worth noting that Cam and Russ are built like tanks and Russ especially understands how to avoid hits.

Not many clean pockets exist these days. It's obviously beaten to death how few good offensive lines there are across the league. Is that a trend that's going to flip? 

And a great pocket passer is better. But very few exist. It's the idea that front offices strive for, which is why dudes like Flacco, Gabbert, Bortles etc (the list is indefinite) get more chances than a Tyrod Taylor. I'd rather have a meh QB that can run than a meh QB that can't run, but fits the outdated archetype for what a great QB should be. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

5 hours ago, Counselor said:

I actually wouldn't be surprised to see Trevor and Vance closing the season out strong enough for Vance to keep his job which is sickening.

I've been thinking the same thing. I think all it takes is 2 more wins for Vance to keep his job. I think don't think Ellis wants to pay another coach and that almost by itself should give Vance some job security for 2018. 

[AnAngryAmerican]

10 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

Really don't like were we are sitting right now in the draft right now. Really think Cousins is gonna be the play ah well got months to be wrong.

That is probably the best outcome we could hope for, landing Cousins, even though it's going to cost big bucks. I'd rather have an established, in-his-prime talent who knows the NFL and has performed at a high level than roll the dice on a rookie, especially one from a gimmick offense. 

[BroncosFan2010]

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It's the idea that front offices strive for, which is why dudes like Flacco, Gabbert, Bortles etc (the list is indefinite) get more chances than a Tyrod Taylor

I don't get this though. Tyrod got a starters gig after being a middle round pick and sitting for years. That's a HUGE chance. Few middle round backup QB's get handed starting spots after so little exposure.

Flacco won a Super Bowl. Gabbert was given like 1.5 seasons in JAX before being jettisoned as a backup caliber guy (And he is a pretty good backup), Bortles was a top 5 pick and is still on his rookie deal. Teams just don't want to cut bait on their investments.

I need examples of running QB's that don't get a chance in the league. And don't include Colin because that's for a whole different set of reasons. I mean even 'one-read-and-run' RG3 got handed the starting gig in Cleveland last season after years of injury/failure in Washington.

 

[BroncosFan2010]

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That is probably the best outcome we could hope for, landing Cousins, even though it's going to cost big bucks. I'd rather have an established, in-his-prime talent who knows the NFL and has performed at a high level than roll the dice on a rookie, especially one from a gimmick offense. 

Downside to this is the talent we will have to jettison to afford Cousins. At the absolute mimumum we would have to cut Talib. Worth it, but I hate fixing issues to create new issues, then again QB is an extridonarily more important issue than CB.

[Broncofan]

8 minutes ago, AnAngryAmerican said:

That is probably the best outcome we could hope for, landing Cousins, even though it's going to cost big bucks. I'd rather have an established, in-his-prime talent who knows the NFL and has performed at a high level than roll the dice on a rookie, especially one from a gimmick offense. 

There's just no realistic chance.   CLE has 100M, JAX has 50M+ once they release Bortles (his 5th year option is not guaranteed)...and remember, WAS still owns his rights.  They won't likely keep him at 34M with the franchise tag (this year it has to go up by 44 percent, so it's 34M to tag him a 3rd time) - but they can still offer that tag (or the transitional tag, if they don't want to even risk him accepting a 34M salary pre-trade), and then have a team trade for him.    Cousins isn't going to get released and get to pick his destination - a team's going to have to pay get the right to franchise/transition-tag him, or lock him up post-trade for the long-term.  But Cousins isn't a FA yet, not by a long shot.   

CLE offered 1.12 and 2.1 last year for Cousins under the tag - and they will have the same ammo (HOU likely does no better than 12-15 range and they own 2.1 again).    This time WAS won't decline, knowing this is the last year to trade him away, and he won't sign with them long-term.     We can't likely match the $ needed to get him, and we certainly don't have the draft capital to trade for him.   And we have to do both.  Add it all up, Cousins-to-us isn't just a pipe dream, it's just not do-able.

Cap-wise, we're badly outgunned - and WAS still owns his rights, and either tag in theory is still do-able - which will ensure WAS can trade him to someone.  We just can't match both the cap hit and draft capital.  

Frankly, if CLE signs Cousins, that gives us the best option to get a top 2 QB.  That's honestly our best outcome with Cousins.

[thebestever6]

43 minutes ago, Broncofan said:

There's just no realistic chance.   CLE has 100M, JAX has 50M+ once they release Bortles (his 5th year option is not guaranteed)...and remember, WAS still owns his rights.  They won't likely keep him at 34M with the franchise tag (this year it has to go up by 44 percent, so it's 34M to tag him a 3rd time) - but they can still offer that tag (or the transitional tag, if they don't want to even risk him accepting a 34M salary pre-trade), and then have a team trade for him.    Cousins isn't going to get released and get to pick his destination - a team's going to have to pay get the right to franchise/transition-tag him, or lock him up post-trade for the long-term.  But Cousins isn't a FA yet, not by a long shot.   

CLE offered 1.12 and 2.1 last year for Cousins under the tag - and they will have the same ammo (HOU likely does no better than 12-15 range and they own 2.1 again).    This time WAS won't decline, knowing this is the last year to trade him away, and he won't sign with them long-term.     We can't likely match the $ needed to get him, and we certainly don't have the draft capital to trade for him.   And we have to do both.  Add it all up, Cousins-to-us isn't just a pipe dream, it's just not do-able.

Cap-wise, we're badly outgunned - and WAS still owns his rights, and either tag in theory is still do-able - which will ensure WAS can trade him to someone.  We just can't match both the cap hit and draft capital.  

Frankly, if CLE signs Cousins, that gives us the best option to get a top 2 QB.  That's honestly our best outcome with Cousins.

What would Clevland have to give up to land cousins? If the first pick is involved you know Washington is going  qb.

I hope people are wrong when they say VJ and the Broncos are gonna  get on a winning streak. Because it accomplishes nothing.

[champ11]

14 minutes ago, BroncosFan2010 said:

I don't get this though. Tyrod got a starters gig after being a middle round pick and sitting for years. That's a HUGE chance. Few middle round backup QB's get handed starting spots after so little exposure.

Flacco won a Super Bowl. Gabbert was given like 1.5 seasons in JAX before being jettisoned as a backup caliber guy (And he is a pretty good backup), Bortles was a top 5 pick and is still on his rookie deal. Teams just don't want to cut bait on their investments.

I need examples of running QB's that don't get a chance in the league. And don't include Colin because that's for a whole different set of reasons. I mean even 'one-read-and-run' RG3 got handed the starting gig in Cleveland last season after years of injury/failure in Washington.

 

Those were just the first guys that came to mind. There are plenty of examples of guys getting more than one chance. Should have gone with like McCown, Hoyer, Fitzpatrick, Cutler, Cassell etc. Most running QBs get weeded out in the draft process. Jerod Evans this past year went undrafted and I think he is a good example. Dudes like Braxton Miller and Denard Robinson have to switch positions. It's just a much tougher barrier of entry for those guys to get opportunities, even though I truly believe it would help teams. Obviously most of the examples I could toss out aren't franchise QBs, but the point is that most QBs aren't. Like, as the Broncos backup QB moving forward, I'd rather be trying to develop Jerod Evans and bank on him to make plays than trust a Brock Osweiler to come in - if we were actually trying to win games. 

Gonna be really interesting what happens with Tyrod. They actively tried to sabotage his career and looked like complete fools. He's better than so many QBs that have started this year. Who knows if he will get a chance to be a starter again, though.

Just my opinion. I think it's something to think about for people moving forward because I don't think it's a common train of thought. I totally respect your viewpoint on QBs though. 

 

[Broncofan]

41 minutes ago, thebestever6 said:

What would Clevland have to give up to land cousins? If the first pick is involved you know Washington is going  qb.

I hope people are wrong when they say VJ and the Broncos are gonna  get on a winning streak. Because it accomplishes nothing.

CLE isn't going to give up 1.1.   They didn't offer it last year when they were looking for 2 years of control minimum, won't have to this year with only 1 more guaranteed year of control that WAS can offer.   WAS has 1 more year they can try to use the tag - either transitional tag, or franchise.    WAS knows that after 2018, Cousins will be too expensive to keep - because the 2019 tag becomes either 40M or 48M depending on which tag WAS used in 2018.    So this is the last year to deal him away.

CLE offered 1.12 and 2.1 last year - WAS declined last year, but they knew they had 1 more year of control after 2017.   Now they don't.   CLE has HOU's 1st rounder, and they have 2.1.  So CLE can keep 1.1 and deal for Cousins - and they have the cap $ to sign Cousins long-term.

Here's the kicker - no other team can match what CLE can - because even with the transition tag, they'd have to give up TWO 1st rounders, this year and next.   None of the top 5 pick teams will do that when Rosen/Darnold are in play - they could give that up and move up for either rookie, and likely don't even need to give up that much.    So then it's only teams that have later picks - and then WAS has to gamble that the 2nd 1st rounder in 2019 is worth more than the 2.1 CLE is already offering, and HOU's pick (which right now, is the 1.7 pick - wow).

WAS really has no leverage on CLE, because the transition tag isn't going to interest the teams with early picks to give up 2 first-rounders - a team that has a later pick, sure.  But then WAS gets worse value with 2 later-1sts than if CLE simply says "we'll offer HOU's 1st" - honestly, CLE probably only has to offer the 1.7 pick and not even the 2.1 and WAS runs to say yes over teams in the teens considering to give up 2 1sts (teens pick in 2018, and if they make playoffs, a 20's+ pick in 2019).   Right now, the 1.7 pick is more valuable than a 1.18 2018 and 1.20+ 2019 1st, by a mile.   CLE doesn't even need to throw in a 2.1 - but if they did, no-brainer, deal gets done right there and then this offseason.

CLE having 1.1 gives them nothing but leverage with WAS - they can either get Cousins for HOU's 1st (plus/minus their 2nd), or they can tell WAS, good luck, we'll go QB 1.1 - and WAS then is stuck at a huge cap hit, or they collect a much worse draft haul if say a team like BUF (who remember is playoff bound right now, or close, so picking at 18-20+), gives up their 2018 & 2019 1st...or they are stuck with a franchise tag of 34M and Cousins leaves after 2019, no trade return whatsoever.  When you look at that situation, a CLE-WAS deal that only involves HOU's 1st is the most likely scenario.

This is exactly like NE holding out the world for Garapollo - and when no one matched it, they took the best offer at the deadline.  Here, WAS' deadline before they can get max return in a trade is this offseason.  We'll likely see the same result (going for far less than dreamers were pointing to - 2 1sts for JimmyG, lol).

 Either way, we're outgunned in a huge way.   CLE is the huge frontrunner, but other teams have us beat in similar ways - CLE is just way ahead of those guys, too.  Honestly, we want CLE to get Cousins - that opens the door for us to get Rosen/Darnold (CLE & SF going away from the draft for QB gives us a realistic window to either be there at 1.3 / 1.4...or trade up).

[BroncoBruin]

Not sure I see how paying Cousins like he's Aaron Rodgers is the best option. It's hard enough to win while paying a great quarterback, but an above average-fairly good one? No thanks. 

[AKRNA]

2 hours ago, BroncoBruin said:

Not sure I see how paying Cousins like he's Aaron Rodgers is the best option. It's hard enough to win while paying a great quarterback, but an above average-fairly good one? No thanks. 

I agree, the cost for a premier QB is prohibitive and also doesn't seem to fit Elways roster plan. I'm of the same opinion. We're seeing what happens when teams paying franchise QB's lose them to injury, GB and Indy come to mind. There's not enough roster strength left to overcome the loss.

 

 

 

[thebestever6]

7 minutes ago, AKRNA said:

I agree, the cost for a premier QB is prohibitive and also doesn't seem to fit Elways roster plan. I'm of the same opinion. We're seeing what happens when teams paying franchise QB's lose them to injury, GB and Indy come to mind. There's not enough roster strength left to overcome the loss.

 

 

 

And it's  a debate whether Cousins is a premier qb to begin with. Games like tonight don't help his case. I think Cousins needs a perfect situation to win a title. And if we give him 25+ a year annually that won't help his case.

That's why it's interesting to go over some guys we can draft in rounds 1 - 3 that we could win with if we truly man the trenches and build the team around them . Ex) the cowboys do with Dak.

Lamar Jackson is a very intriguing prospect because he sounds like a bigger Mike Vick with a more refined passing ability.  If we could get a guy like Andy Reid in here that was instrumental in helping Vick evolve as a passer. We might have elite qb play for 8 to 10 years. 

 

[jolly red giant]

6 hours ago, thebestever6 said:

And it's  a debate whether Cousins is a premier qb to begin with. Games like tonight don't help his case. I think Cousins needs a perfect situation to win a title. And if we give him 25+ a year annually that won't help his case.

That's why it's interesting to go over some guys we can draft in rounds 1 - 3 that we could win with if we truly man the trenches and build the team around them . Ex) the cowboys do with Dak.

Lamar Jackson is a very intriguing prospect because he sounds like a bigger Mike Vick with a more refined passing ability.  If we could get a guy like Andy Reid in here that was instrumental in helping Vick evolve as a passer. We might have elite qb play for 8 to 10 years. 

 

1. I agree about Cousins - he is going to get way overpaid because of the lack of QB talent in the NFL

2. This is a problem - the trenches - the NFL (and college football) is absolutely devoid of OL talent - and that will continue to be the case because all the 'trench-warfare' athletes are on the D side. It is part of the reason why the football has been so poor this year. The NFL owners and administrators changed the rules to turn it into a pass happy league - the teams responded by building defences to stop the pass. The talent is now predominantly on the defensive side of the ball as a result. And I can't see this changing in the near future. Offences will have to figure out how to slow down the defences.

3. And I think that Elway's target with be Tyrod Taylor with a plan to try and build the OL. If I am not mistaken, that was the top priority when bringing back Kubiak - find OL talent (somewhere).