MrOaktown_56 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 43 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Wins aren't the only thing that should come into consideration but like it or not coaches and quarterbacks are always going to have W/L attached to their resume, it just comes with the territory. I think one of the biggest issues with Carr where wins/losses is a strong indicator is how he has struggled to beat good teams. Through 6 years he's 4-33 against playoff teams and those 4 wins came against Brock Osweiler (2x), Marcus Mariota, and Alex Smith. We've also only ranked in the top half of the league in PPG once and in the top half of the league in YPG twice. Carr certainly hasn't had a great supporting cast, we've had instability on our staff, and our defense has ranked in 19th or worse in YPG and 20th or worse in PPG all 6 of his seasons here. But at the end of the day Carr hasn't shown the ability to elevate the team/franchise. He's an average QB that can be above average with the right pieces around him. Hopefully he can lead us to the playoffs with all of the pieces we've added around him. I don't disagree with any of these statements. But W-L should never be an argument. If we were Chicago and were clearly being held back by our qb, I would be strongly advocating for a replacement already. I understand wanting to win, but I'm glad we're auditioning Carr this year to give him a chance to be the future. If we cut bait this past year and didn't give him the chance, I'd be furious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 22 hours ago, massraider said: I'm real nervous about signing Rodgers. Age and attitude are a concern. He's always been a weird dude. There's a chance he's moved next year, but such a big financial hit, more likely in two years. We're gonna trade a ton for a 37 year old guy, maybe 38? I think it's much more likely that the team sticks with Carr. Funny about Carr: the discussion, nationally, focuses on his unwillingness to throw deep. OK. He does everything else fine. How many games has Brady won throwing underneath? Tyrell returning to SD form, and the addition of Ruggs could be massive. Counting on Bowden or Edwards for serious production is foolish, they're 3rd rounders. Of course they, can help, but the passing game will have to focus on Waller/Tyrell/Ruggs. I know Ruggs is only a rookie, but 4.3 speed is 4.3 speed from Day 1. I think that it really just depends on Carr/Mariota's performance this season. If both guys struggle and we have a disappointing year I could see us making a desperation move and going after ARod and then drafting a QB early to sit behind him. That $36M and $39M cap hit in 2021/2022 for a 38/39 year old QB is tough though and makes it unrealistic considering that we were interested in Brady but didn't want to pay him $25M per year. Brady has won throwing underneath but New England has ranked in the top 10 in scoring offense for the last 16 straight seasons. With Carr we've ranked in the bottom of half of the league in scoring offense in 5/6 seasons including 20th or worse in 4/6 seasons. With 2016 being the exception when we ranked 7th in scoring offense. If Tyrell Williams is healthy he's one of the best deep threats in the league and Ruggs speed should open a lot for the rest of our offense. We don't really need any of our WR's to be a dominant #1 option because Waller should have 100+ catches this season. The thing that I like about our group is that we have guys that bring different skillsets to the table so you can move them around to find mismatches. I also think that people are sleeping on Hunter Renfrow who came on really strong at the end of the year. He had better numbers than 14/17 of the WR's taken in the first round between 2015-2019 as a rookie. Wouldn't surprise me if he ends up as our 3rd most targeted WR this year tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 1 minute ago, MrOaktown_56 said: I don't disagree with any of these statements. But W-L should never be an argument. If we were Chicago and were clearly being held back by our qb, I would be strongly advocating for a replacement already. I understand wanting to win, but I'm glad we're auditioning Carr this year to give him a chance to be the future. If we cut bait this past year and didn't give him the chance, I'd be furious. W-L will always be attached to the QB though, fair or not. Plus when you look at even deeper he has struggled to beat good teams throughout his career. Agreed. I think ultimately Mayock/Gruden knew that we weren't going to find a clear upgrade over Carr this offseason. We have Carr on what's now a bargain contract over the next three seasons with the flexibility to get out of the deal at any time. Mariota is a nice insurance policy to have behind him and someone that should push him unlike other backup QB's we've had here during his career. Losing Brown and Williams being hurt throughout the season really hurt our offense last year but we were still in the playoff hunt going into week 17. Over the last two offseason Mayock has added Brown, Incognito, Williams, Jacobs, Renfrow, Moreau, Ruggs, and Edwards. We'll have a top 5 offensive line, a top 10 running game, top 5 TE, and a collection of young WR's this season. There's really no excuse for Carr not to play well. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 2 minutes ago, NYRaider said: W-L will always be attached to the QB though, fair or not. Plus when you look at even deeper he has struggled to beat good teams throughout his career. Agreed. I think ultimately Mayock/Gruden knew that we weren't going to find a clear upgrade over Carr this offseason. We have Carr on what's now a bargain contract over the next three seasons with the flexibility to get out of the deal at any time. Mariota is a nice insurance policy to have behind him and someone that should push him unlike other backup QB's we've had here during his career. Losing Brown and Williams being hurt throughout the season really hurt our offense last year but we were still in the playoff hunt going into week 17. Over the last two offseason Mayock has added Brown, Incognito, Williams, Jacobs, Renfrow, Moreau, Ruggs, and Edwards. We'll have a top 5 offensive line, a top 10 running game, top 5 TE, and a collection of young WR's this season. There's really no excuse for Carr not to play well. We had all of this last year, but week to week because of injuries and inconsistencies. I agree the pieces are in play for a big year, but I never understood the "no excuses argument". Even if he plays well, we win and lose as a team. For better or worse. It's the only reason he's still here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Totty Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 I'd say there is a fair amount of pressure on Carr this year. Mariota is lurking. Productive RB, TE, Better targets throughout. Our line is legit. If the defense can shave 7 points a game (an argument from locked in raiders podcast) we should be in line for something good. Probably won't win the division, but we could sneak in the playoffs. If we miss the playoffs this year, and I don't mean because we give up 30 points game. I mean because Carr isn't the guy it'll be the first time I understand it. And I'll gladly welcome Mariota for a year while we draft our future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 9 minutes ago, MrOaktown_56 said: We had all of this last year, but week to week because of injuries and inconsistencies. I agree the pieces are in play for a big year, but I never understood the "no excuses argument". Even if he plays well, we win and lose as a team. For better or worse. It's the only reason he's still here. We did but we really didn't have much at WR. Renfrow as a 5th round rookie (who missed 3 games) was our most targeted WR followed by Williams who was hurt for 2/3 of the season. After that Zay Jones was the only other WR on the team that had 20+ targets for us. He's going into year three and we've added a ton of weapons around him, there really shouldn't be any excuses. I'm not even referring to wins/losses, I'm referring to his play and command of the offense. The reason he's still here is because there hasn't been a clear upgrade from him at the position. Plus Gruden knows first hand how difficult it is to find a good, consistent, starting QB in the NFL. I mean we pretty much had no stability at the position between 2002 (Gannon's last good season) and 2014 when we drafted Carr. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geezy Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 Carr needs to perform. I don't see Chucky being much more patient with the weapons our offense will go into the season with. If he refuses to takes shots and gives up on plays in close games, I see him falling out of favor. I don't see Carr holding this team back. I don't think Carr is elite, but I do think he has what it takes to manage an offense, and make plays with his arm when given the opportunity. He has the arm talent to be a gun slinger but the mentality of a game manager. I think this is what frustrates a lot of guys. With the weapons we have now, we will need him to make more plays. Also, with the defense looking to be much better, I think we can look to be more aggressive on offense, instead of playing a ball controlled keep the defense off the field type of game. Im looking forward to the season and to see how Carr responds. Ive made a ton of excuses for DC, because I believe in him. But things are lined up nicely and he needs to take the bull by the horns and proves hes the man for the job. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrOaktown_56 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 5 minutes ago, NYRaider said: We did but we really didn't have much at WR. Renfrow as a 5th round rookie (who missed 3 games) was our most targeted WR followed by Williams who was hurt for 2/3 of the season. After that Zay Jones was the only other WR on the team that had 20+ targets for us. He's going into year three and we've added a ton of weapons around him, there really shouldn't be any excuses. I'm not even referring to wins/losses, I'm referring to his play and command of the offense. The reason he's still here is because there hasn't been a clear upgrade from him at the position. Plus Gruden knows first hand how difficult it is to find a good, consistent, starting QB in the NFL. I mean we pretty much had no stability at the position between 2002 (Gannon's last good season) and 2014 when we drafted Carr. I think Gruden has to also take a step forward in terms of "opening up" the offense and creating play designs to carr's strengths (including more spread concepts). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bitty 2.0 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 48 minutes ago, NYRaider said: Even on the decline he has been very good the last two seasons. 8,400 yards, 51 TD, 6 INT with almost nothing at WR other than Adams and they were a game away from the Super Bowl last season. Rodgers will be 37 this season so it's nice to have a contingency plan in case he gets hurt or hangs them up early. It worked out pretty well for them when they did the same thing drafting Rodgers while Farve still had some gas in the tank. He still one of the best but he is on the decline its noticeable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnobili Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 (edited) the difference is favre kept toying with retirement every single offseason and was torturing the franchise. rodgers hasn't even hinted at retirement and recently signed a mammoth contract that doesn't have a realistic out until 2022 at the earliest (and even that contemplates the team eating 17 mil in dead cap) favre was also a liability for the packers in 05 and 06 though he did come back with a really strong 2007 where he actually got an MVP vote during Brady's ridiculous season. Rodgers has obviously declined, but he has been far from a liability rodgers was also a legitimate candidate for the #1 overall pick. Love is a fringe first round prospect Edited May 4, 2020 by Turnobili Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oakdb36 Posted May 4, 2020 Share Posted May 4, 2020 1 hour ago, NYRaider said: That $36M and $39M cap hit in 2021/2022 for a 38/39 year old QB is tough though and makes it unrealistic considering that we were interested in Brady but didn't want to pay him $25M per year. If Rodgers is traded and plays under his current contract, cap hits for the team he's traded to would be very affordable. (From 2021 to 23; 22M, 25.5M, 25.5M) All the signing bonuses would stay on GB's cap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 7 hours ago, oakdb36 said: If Rodgers is traded and plays under his current contract, cap hits for the team he's traded to would be very affordable. (From 2021 to 23; 22M, 25.5M, 25.5M) All the signing bonuses would stay on GB's cap. That's actually not too bad, especially since Carr's contract only has $2.5M of dead cap in 2021 and none in 2022. A scenario where we acquire Rodgers and draft a QB early to sit behind him would be pretty ideal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYRaider Posted May 5, 2020 Share Posted May 5, 2020 8 hours ago, Turnobili said: Rodgers has obviously declined, but he has been far from a liability rodgers was also a legitimate candidate for the #1 overall pick. Love is a fringe first round prospect Rodgers was excellent last season. They had a middle of the pack offensive line and running game. Plus he had literally nothing at WR other than Adams and he still passed for 4,000 yards, 26 TD, and 4 INT in a season they won 13 games and were a game away from the Super Bowl. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
raidr4life Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turnobili Posted May 6, 2020 Share Posted May 6, 2020 47 minutes ago, raidr4life said: the one time he wasnt super homer fanboy optimist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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