The QB Thread: Everything Carr, Stidham and beyond...

[ronjon1990]

4 hours ago, Darbsk said:

they are rookies it's not a lock that they will be stars and produce right off the bat......maybe we're expecting a little much from them? I hope they can deliver 😀

Oh absolutely agree. I don't believe in draft picks being "slam dunks" regardless of hype. 

I also expect there to be growing pains (especially if preseason stuff is interrupted). But, Ruggs and Edwards are also hardly known-to-be-projects like David Ausberry or Saeed Blacknall or whoever. 

With that in mind, I don't necessarily need to see them produce statistically, rather I want to see Carr not treating them like JAG prospects when out there. If Carr fixes his part and they're dropping passes, running bad/wrong routes, that will be pretty obvious. Main thing is I want to see Carr acting like they're the best WR corps in the league and giving them chances. If he does that, I'm happy to let stats slide while they grow into their roles. I think most people would be happy with that. 

Carr has proven he can play reserved enough to limit TO's. And if Gruden sees something downfield not working, he can tell him to focus on the short, efficient stuff. There's plenty of room in the NFL to win by simply being efficient. Lord knows we've done that. Now though, like someone said, let's see Carr go back to 2016 aggressiveness, where even broadcast teams were labelling him clutch. He's done it before, let's see it again, or at least the attempt which is what's been missing the last couple years (I'm a fan of his, but even I've noticed a difference). 

[MrOaktown_56]

5 hours ago, bucksavage1 said:

+Carr also doesn't extend plays beyond the 1st read. If the play breaks down he either throws it away, checks down. Gruden biggest vocal complaint

+ Carr also isn't productive redzone 

+Doesn't escape pressure

+Awful vs winning teams

+Awful in games 40 degrees or below

+ 2nd worst record in NFL history after 6 seasons of starting.

 

 

He actually escapes pressure. He's been one of the least sacked qb's for a reason. He's not elite at it, but he's not some statue back there.

I watched a lot of all 22. When he tried to extend plays, WR were not getting separation. In part because we didn't have a vertical threat and corners were sitting on our routes. Which the GM literally said. I always thought Mayock knew best. Which is why he drafted Ruggs and not a qb. But I could be wrong.

Redzone offense is super finicky. Carr was about league average in the redzone per most metrics. I don't see how that's "not productive".

The bolded have nothing to do with Carr.

But you also think Mariota is our best option so I'm not sure why I'm even trying to have an objective conversation at this point *shrug*.

 

[MrOaktown_56]

3 minutes ago, ronjon1990 said:

Oh absolutely agree. I don't believe in draft picks being "slam dunks" regardless of hype. 

I also expect there to be growing pains (especially if preseason stuff is interrupted). But, Ruggs and Edwards are also hardly known-to-be-projects like David Ausberry or Saeed Blacknall or whoever. 

With that in mind, I don't necessarily need to see them produce statistically, rather I want to see Carr not treating them like JAG prospects when out there. If Carr fixes his part and they're dropping passes, running bad/wrong routes, that will be pretty obvious. Main thing is I want to see Carr acting like they're the best WR corps in the league and giving them chances. If he does that, I'm happy to let stats slide while they grow into their roles. I think most people would be happy with that. 

Carr has proven he can play reserved enough to limit TO's. And if Gruden sees something downfield not working, he can tell him to focus on the short, efficient stuff. There's plenty of room in the NFL to win by simply being efficient. Lord knows we've done that. Now though, like someone said, let's see Carr go back to 2016 aggressiveness, where even broadcast teams were labelling him clutch. He's done it before, let's see it again, or at least the attempt which is what's been missing the last couple years (I'm a fan of his, but even I've noticed a difference). 

This has a lot to do with offseason work and that "trust" factor. Hopefully COVID will not affect training camp.

[MrOaktown_56]

Objectively, Mariota could not put up points on an offense with a good line, Derrick Henry, and objectively better receivers than we had. Now people think he's suddenly going to come in and light it up? It would be great if he could, but I don't see it rn. 

[SilverNBlackFan]

On 5/8/2020 at 7:55 PM, Frankie2Gunz said:

Don't you think the reason he hasn't gone deep is because he hasn't trusted his trash WR's?  I wouldn't trust the bums to gain separation or win contested throws on deep balls either.  

It seems pretty obvious why he has not gone deep to me and clearly the Raiders brass was not happy with our garbage WR's. Carr clearly has the skills I just don't understand how fans can't see what is so obvious.  It's perplexing that you guys think he should be throwing deep to Zay Jones, Ateman, Gafford etc.  If you think he should be going deep to those guys you need to go back to football 101.

Even in college, Carr wasn't ever known as a deep ball guy. He's always been a QB who excels in spread type concepts, get the ball out of your hands as quickly as possible. He's never been the type of QB that is known to let plays develop downfield. He clearly has the arm talent to challenge a team vertically but that's just never been his game. Just like he has always had the athleticism to scramble/make more things happen with his legs but it's just not his game. 

 

[dante9876]

2 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

This has a lot to do with offseason work and that "trust" factor. Hopefully COVID will not affect training camp.

But this is so ridiculous. The over played trust issue. So now if he doesnt have enough training he not gonna trust them. Just go play. The coaches will know who fault it is like you just said about mayock. One catch or td builds trust and than one drop or bad route destroys it? Like wentz last year, like rodgers for years and other qbs. Jusy go play and expect wrs to do their jobs. You not going to always be throwing to guys, you was able to build a bunch of trust with.

[raidr4life]

3 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

Objectively, Mariota could not put up points on an offense with a good line, Derrick Henry, and objectively better receivers than we had. Now people think he's suddenly going to come in and light it up? It would be great if he could, but I don't see it rn. 

A change of scenery can do wonders, who knows Grudens offense could fit him perfectly, I'm sure he can dump off just as good as Carr, now add in the possibility of him using his legs more to keep drives alive and being more aggressive with taking deep shots when Gruden wants it, you never know what can happen. It's not apples to apples. That being said if Carr performs he won't have to worry about that.

[MrOaktown_56]

1 hour ago, dante9876 said:

But this is so ridiculous. The over played trust issue. So now if he doesnt have enough training he not gonna trust them. Just go play. The coaches will know who fault it is like you just said about mayock. One catch or td builds trust and than one drop or bad route destroys it? Like wentz last year, like rodgers for years and other qbs. Jusy go play and expect wrs to do their jobs. You not going to always be throwing to guys, you was able to build a bunch of trust with.

I’m pointing out the obvious. Chemistry/trust definitely matters. You can develop that over time. 
I agree I think he needs to let it loose regardless.   I think he will because of the talent surplus. It’s easier to trust Ruggs than zay Jones.

[oakdb36]

6 hours ago, dante9876 said:

So how do we decide when its the wrs or the qb that is the problem?? 

When we watch the games.

[dante9876]

1 hour ago, oakdb36 said:

When we watch the games.

People dont like that argument. 

[drfrey13]

I am not saying we can not win with Carr or that he can not improve.  Dilfer is proof that if you surround a QB with enough talent anyone can win a a Super Bowl.  I was saying to get rid of him after 2018 because it looked like the injuries broke him mentally but he has improved since.  I was willing to give him another chance and was surprised with the improvement last year but some bad habits started up again the second half of the season.  There could be reasons for this and I could make an argument for or against him.  Although Mariorta would not be my 1st, 2nd, or 3rd choice I said what we should see is Gruden spending this off season on a backup that could take over if Carr starts to fail.  This would show if the problem is talent around the QB or the QB themselves.  Gruden spent the money on someone he thought could do that.  This is his make or break year and I hope he plays well.  

19 hours ago, ronjon1990 said:

The "not fighting through contact" bit though? He's a QB. I don't want my QB "fighting through contact", especially when my backup options are McCarron, Glennon, Peterman, Kizer, etc. 

I am not saying he should be a tough guy but do not go down automatically if you get bumped or they get to close.  He is not this bad but he is close and it could be from the injuries but eventually you need to shake that off.

This is Carr 2016.  You will see glimpses of this but now he would most likely just throw it away or slide at the line of scrimmage.

http://www.nfl.com/videos/nfl-game-highlights/0ap3000000708864/Derek-Carr-escapes-sack-twice-throws-cross-field-dime-to-Crabtree

[Darbsk]

12 hours ago, Justwinning said:

Context

His rookie year and 2018, where he had absolutely nothing to work with, accounted for 25 of his losses. The stats are obviously skewed.

W/L is a team record.

Exactly 😀

Its amazing to me how this gets constantly overlooked, the 2014 team was among the worst I've ever seen from any franchise. 2018 wasn't much better at all and that is the trouble with stats, they can be presented without context to support whatever straw man argument the poster desires. 

[bucksavage1]

 

 

 

 

 

 

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15 hours ago, MrOaktown_56 said:

He actually escapes pressure. He's been one of the least sacked qb's for a reason. He's not elite at it, but he's not some statue back there.

I watched a lot of all 22. When he tried to extend plays, WR were not getting separation. In part because we didn't have a vertical threat and corners were sitting on our routes. Which the GM literally said. I always thought Mayock knew best. Which is why he drafted Ruggs and not a qb. But I could be wrong.

Redzone offense is super finicky. Carr was about league average in the redzone per most metrics. I don't see how that's "not productive".

The bolded have nothing to do with Carr.

But you also think Mariota is our best option so I'm not sure why I'm even trying to have an objective conversation at this point *shrug*.

 

1. Carr escapes pressure by checking down or throwing it away. He but he hardly ever makes plays when pressure comes. He's least sacked due to the elite O-Line or the constant checkdowns/quick passes. He generally folds in the pocket when pressured. 

 

2. How many times did we settle for FGs and not TDs?

3. So Carr as the QB had nothing to do wins and losses? So you're saying the 2016 season 12-4 Carr had nothing to do with that either?  This is beyond me. Of course it is a TEAM game but to say that Carr had nothing to do with the losses is wrong. QBs and coaches have the biggest effect on winning and losing that's why the NFL attributes wins and losses to coaches, GMs and QBs. Carr is highly responsible for the dubious records. To say QBs don't have a hand in winning and losing is being blind faithful. 

4. Mariota makes plays with his feet. The short passing I'm sure he can replicate too

[bucksavage1]

17 hours ago, Justwinning said:

Context

His rookie year and 2018, where he had absolutely nothing to work with, accounted for 25 of his losses. The stats are obviously skewed.

W/L is a team record.

Well just about every top pick goes to the worst team in the NFL. NFL doesnt tie starting records to Left Tackles or WRs

[bucksavage1]

5 hours ago, Darbsk said:

Exactly 😀

Its amazing to me how this gets constantly overlooked, the 2014 team was among the worst I've ever seen from any franchise. 2018 wasn't much better at all and that is the trouble with stats, they can be presented without context to support whatever straw man argument the poster desires. 

I don't know...I've seen some teams not win a game during the entire season recently